It is worth remembering that in the mid-80s we were an Isthmian League team averaging 500 a game, and in the mid-90s we were a Football League team averaging 5000 a game. Growth clearly is possible, but is does tend to be dependent on what is produced on the pitch.
IF we established ourselves in the Championship then I would expect that our crowds would grow. Would they ever reach the level of the larger clubs in our current division? Almost certainly not, because our catchment area is far smaller in terms of population. Outside of Burnley, I can't think of any towns of comparable size who manage to get regular 20,000 crowds, and they have a far grander history than us.
What held us back prior to the 1980s was the closed shop of the Football League. When that opened up a number of clubs were able to bridge into the League, and we remain probably the most successful example of this. Turning us into a club that can sustain at a higher level than we are at currently though will be much harder than the journey we went on from the mid-80s to the mid-90s.
This comment should be shared with Rob. I remember on the day of the fateful Torquay game contemplating watching Wycombe in the conference again, and it wasn't so bad for me. Just having the team around to watch and follow is what is important.
Having said that, I am of course delighted at the upwards progress we've made since Torquay.
The positive discussions on the new access road with the Dashwoods is a massive step forward and does have the potential to remove a glass ceiling on the club, but time will only tell how much of a stifle it really is. Expanding capacity before the new access road is tested would be a bad idea, especially if any investment is burdened on the club.
The biggest issue for me is ground location. We will struggle to increase revenue both in footballing and non-footballing terms simply because the ground is out of town and there is absolutely nothing else to do once you're here. No shops, no pubs, no entertainment.
The Thames Valley Cricket League held their end of season dinner at AP. They massively struggled to sell tickets and I suspect given the push to sell them it was poorly attended.
Main reason that I heard of was location. Two of us from my cricket club are season ticket holders at WWFC and we decided not to go because it's a ball ache to get to and you basically have to drive or spend a small fortune on taxis.
All this talk of access roads, etc etc I think we'd be far better trying to move back into Town. That will increase crowds. It maybe a pipedream but I think it's the only solution that will tick all the boxes required to be a Championship club.
Any move surely needs 10s of millions of funding or borrowing to happen. People are arguing over the need to spend on what could be a temporary use access road. A whole new stadium with all amenities might have upsides but would be such a big ask. Also last time we were selling prime land in the centre of town to pay for the stadium whereas if we did it now wherever we moved to, if a site could be found at all, would probably be more expensive land than AP even before you start to build anything.
I wonder if the access road could either start off or end up being purely for shuttle buses to town, park and rides and outlying areas. Potentially less expensive and less hassle than making it a fully open highway.
I still think there is zero evidence in today's climate that an increase in capacity will see a rise in attendance. An improvement in access might see a marginal increase in attendance.
Too many other factors. Too many competing alternatives.
So anyone saying that they need to make a big capital spend off the pitch to take the club forward is either ill-informed or has plans I can't see. Sad to say we've been burnt before.
Couldn't any new access road be used by occupiers of the units on the industrial estate making it a one way route. There are some very large vehicles entering and exiting the units so a one way system might improve safety.
I'm not sure even Rob is arguing that an increase in capacity will increase attendances.
Removing some pet hates and impediments to attendance might to some extent and Investing in the facilities, increasing access to shops and bars might also raise income.
Wether it's all worth it very much tbc, presumably some spending on facilities is required just to maintain.
I’m with you on this one. I can’t see how adding a new road out of the ground towards West Wycombe (A40), would result in an increase to the fan base.
For me, I feel a further investment in the team would be the way to get more fans turning up. Success in the field is the only thing that will bring more people to AP.
I wonder what will happen if we ( the Trust members), vote no on Wednesday night?
The only thing that is going to guarantee the attendances they aspire to is being in the Championship.
The only thing that is likely to get us back to the Championship is a better squad of players.
So whether they invest in the infrastructure, the playing squad, or both - it's all a big gamble, which makes it imperative that FALL retain full ownership of the stadium in case the gamble fails.
Isn't the problem with that the scmp or whatever it's called? No real way of telling if we are at the limit of what we can are allowed to spend. Which is presumably less than many others regardless of how we are doing.
I'd like to see at a minimum some kind of clause agreed that if we ever sought to go into administration for any reason and the trust was prepared to service any debts that it would be allowed to do so immediately with full control of all assets, or something like that. Not sure if it's practical. Ground control ideal if also unlikely.
Of the Collision and Luby playbook. Will the Trust board still need 11 directors? Given they “have reached an agreement” what is the insurmountable problem in sharing the details with their members ahead of the meeting?
The most concerning thing was that he completely misses what constitutes a big club. It’s actually is the history of Sheffield Wednesday and Ipswich, rather than stadium size that makes the difference.
I worry that he assumes a larger stadium, alone, will solve our problems.
I understand, correct me if I’m wrong, that for structural reasons the valley end needs rebuilding. So presumably they are taking the opportunity to revamp that end. Presumably the alternative might be that the valley end would eventually have to close.
Presumably at the same time the problem with the acoustics would be solved.
presumably at the same time the problem with the acoustics would be solved.
Dare I say it But could some sort of sensible accommodation then be made for a musician or musicians to add to the atmosphere ? not advocating the return to the controversial drummer
Re your final paragraph, Elton John is retiring next spring. We could design a cubicle in the new stand to house his Yamaha piano and have him provide the music!
Comments
Save this stuff for Wednesday night or it'll be done by 7.15
It is worth remembering that in the mid-80s we were an Isthmian League team averaging 500 a game, and in the mid-90s we were a Football League team averaging 5000 a game. Growth clearly is possible, but is does tend to be dependent on what is produced on the pitch.
IF we established ourselves in the Championship then I would expect that our crowds would grow. Would they ever reach the level of the larger clubs in our current division? Almost certainly not, because our catchment area is far smaller in terms of population. Outside of Burnley, I can't think of any towns of comparable size who manage to get regular 20,000 crowds, and they have a far grander history than us.
What held us back prior to the 1980s was the closed shop of the Football League. When that opened up a number of clubs were able to bridge into the League, and we remain probably the most successful example of this. Turning us into a club that can sustain at a higher level than we are at currently though will be much harder than the journey we went on from the mid-80s to the mid-90s.
This comment should be shared with Rob. I remember on the day of the fateful Torquay game contemplating watching Wycombe in the conference again, and it wasn't so bad for me. Just having the team around to watch and follow is what is important.
Having said that, I am of course delighted at the upwards progress we've made since Torquay.
The positive discussions on the new access road with the Dashwoods is a massive step forward and does have the potential to remove a glass ceiling on the club, but time will only tell how much of a stifle it really is. Expanding capacity before the new access road is tested would be a bad idea, especially if any investment is burdened on the club.
The biggest issue for me is ground location. We will struggle to increase revenue both in footballing and non-footballing terms simply because the ground is out of town and there is absolutely nothing else to do once you're here. No shops, no pubs, no entertainment.
The Thames Valley Cricket League held their end of season dinner at AP. They massively struggled to sell tickets and I suspect given the push to sell them it was poorly attended.
Main reason that I heard of was location. Two of us from my cricket club are season ticket holders at WWFC and we decided not to go because it's a ball ache to get to and you basically have to drive or spend a small fortune on taxis.
All this talk of access roads, etc etc I think we'd be far better trying to move back into Town. That will increase crowds. It maybe a pipedream but I think it's the only solution that will tick all the boxes required to be a Championship club.
Does anyone know how much The Trust sold their 75 per cent shareholding for?
I think that would be the dream.
Football ground in the centre of town is great for all kinds of reasons.
Any move surely needs 10s of millions of funding or borrowing to happen. People are arguing over the need to spend on what could be a temporary use access road. A whole new stadium with all amenities might have upsides but would be such a big ask. Also last time we were selling prime land in the centre of town to pay for the stadium whereas if we did it now wherever we moved to, if a site could be found at all, would probably be more expensive land than AP even before you start to build anything.
A new, probably temporary use, access road could be a worthwhile investment that may well pay back in time (obviously depending on cost).
Other schemes such as moving back to the town centre are a different stratosphere of commitment and almost impossible to conceive.
I can't see it happening, but I'd love the ground to move back into the town. Only obvious place is the Rye, but cant see it being allowed
Wycombe Abbey has an obscene amount of land it doesn't need. Didn't we actually play there for a bit waaay back when?
The idea of jamming up the already dreadful traffic London Road with more traffic would not be a picnic.
True, but also, a lot more people, myself included could easily jump on a bus into town instead of driving
Obviously going down a complete hypothetical avenue, BUT I agree, I would jump on a bus to go to the town centre also.
I think the reason most people don't get a bus to the ground is because it is almost always two buses changing in town.
Example
Hazlemere - Town - Sands
Loudwater - Town - Sands
Although on a more sinister note, I think this would lead to me to drink about 4 more beers each Saturday leading to a much shorter life span.
I wonder if the access road could either start off or end up being purely for shuttle buses to town, park and rides and outlying areas. Potentially less expensive and less hassle than making it a fully open highway.
I can think of a much more practical and probably less expensive alternative...
I still think there is zero evidence in today's climate that an increase in capacity will see a rise in attendance. An improvement in access might see a marginal increase in attendance.
Too many other factors. Too many competing alternatives.
So anyone saying that they need to make a big capital spend off the pitch to take the club forward is either ill-informed or has plans I can't see. Sad to say we've been burnt before.
Couldn't any new access road be used by occupiers of the units on the industrial estate making it a one way route. There are some very large vehicles entering and exiting the units so a one way system might improve safety.
I'm not sure even Rob is arguing that an increase in capacity will increase attendances.
Removing some pet hates and impediments to attendance might to some extent and Investing in the facilities, increasing access to shops and bars might also raise income.
Wether it's all worth it very much tbc, presumably some spending on facilities is required just to maintain.
I’m with you on this one. I can’t see how adding a new road out of the ground towards West Wycombe (A40), would result in an increase to the fan base.
For me, I feel a further investment in the team would be the way to get more fans turning up. Success in the field is the only thing that will bring more people to AP.
I wonder what will happen if we ( the Trust members), vote no on Wednesday night?
The only thing that is going to guarantee the attendances they aspire to is being in the Championship.
The only thing that is likely to get us back to the Championship is a better squad of players.
So whether they invest in the infrastructure, the playing squad, or both - it's all a big gamble, which makes it imperative that FALL retain full ownership of the stadium in case the gamble fails.
Having once ‘run’ the Wycombe half marathon, I can tell you that the grounds at Wycombe Abbey are like the north face of the Eiger!
Isn't the problem with that the scmp or whatever it's called? No real way of telling if we are at the limit of what we can are allowed to spend. Which is presumably less than many others regardless of how we are doing.
I'd like to see at a minimum some kind of clause agreed that if we ever sought to go into administration for any reason and the trust was prepared to service any debts that it would be allowed to do so immediately with full control of all assets, or something like that. Not sure if it's practical. Ground control ideal if also unlikely.
Having listened to the interview with RC on Ringing The Blues (thanks @bluntphil ) his ideas range from the reasonable to the completely fantastical.
There is also a de facto admission that we are indeed after all "little Wycombe"
Given The Trust “have reached an agreement”,it would appear that on Wednesday we will see a re-run o
Of the Collision and Luby playbook. Will the Trust board still need 11 directors? Given they “have reached an agreement” what is the insurmountable problem in sharing the details with their members ahead of the meeting?
The most concerning thing was that he completely misses what constitutes a big club. It’s actually is the history of Sheffield Wednesday and Ipswich, rather than stadium size that makes the difference.
I worry that he assumes a larger stadium, alone, will solve our problems.
I understand, correct me if I’m wrong, that for structural reasons the valley end needs rebuilding. So presumably they are taking the opportunity to revamp that end. Presumably the alternative might be that the valley end would eventually have to close.
Presumably at the same time the problem with the acoustics would be solved.
presumably at the same time the problem with the acoustics would be solved.
Dare I say it But could some sort of sensible accommodation then be made for a musician or musicians to add to the atmosphere ? not advocating the return to the controversial drummer
Re your final paragraph, Elton John is retiring next spring. We could design a cubicle in the new stand to house his Yamaha piano and have him provide the music!
Didn’t we used to have a sort of band a few years ago that played in The Family Stand ? Might be memory playing tricks on me