It looks to me like the EFL were expecting a points deduction and had prepared the interchangeable fixtures to account for a Derby appeal. Makes no sense this way and would be far better if they had said nothing about it.
Not seen anyone mention Sheff Wed today. I’m not sure how similar the charges were but if they are in any way similar I would expect them to be less than happy
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub Their members' collective turnover is pretty irrelevant to the EFL's effectiveness. Many of the members, it seems to me, don't want the EFL to be effective. To take the most obvious example, many owners, not actually being fit and proper persons, do not want there to be an effective fit and proper persons test.
I'm not seeking to argue that the EFL doesn't need to be much better. It just strikes me as slightly unfair that the regulators always get the lion's share of the blame when the real villains of the piece are the rule breakers. As Derby County are here.
My guess is that we will be preparing a squad for League 1 - it is the most likely outcome and we cannot gamble on signing players on the basis of a Championship budget.
In the unlikely event we are reinstated in the Championship, we can always try and pick up some players late in the window, although clearly this is not ideal.
I’ve absolutely no clue how it impacts on players contract negotiations - bonuses, clauses etc are surely largely dependent on our division status?
Behind the scenes, feel sure we’ll be preparing a legal challenge.
Is it just me or is the decision coming a week after the season starts?
Who sits on the Independent Commission and who made the appointments?
If you cheat for five years and everyone knows you're doing it, at what point does somebody DO something about it?
It seems corporate governance does not apply to the football industry, is there any other industries to whom it doesn't apply, as I cannot think of any others.
We've put man on the moon, invented covid vaccines in record time, invented the internet etc. surely getting football owners to abide by the rules is achievable too?
Until Derby submit the three missing years account they will remain under a transfer embargo.
One way or another the EFL are finally going to nail Derby for years of cooking the books.
Whether we benefit, or actually suffer from the two league fixture confusion remains to be seen.
But the longer no statement comes from Bobby C or the club, the more it looks like the EFL are keeping us informed via a back channel.
If Derby do have until 18th August to file new accounts then this is over, at least in terms of our interest.
In that case, unless Derby bizarrely opt to submit their presumably dodgy accounts now, and cause themselves problems, it is baffling the statement mentioned thus dual fixtures thing.
@ChasHarps said:
Until Derby submit the three missing years account they will remain under a transfer embargo.
One way or another the EFL are finally going to nail Derby for years of cooking the books.
Whether we benefit, or actually suffer from the two league fixture confusion remains to be seen.
But the longer no statement comes from Bobby C or the club, the more it looks like the EFL are keeping us informed via a back channel.
Rooney is staying after accepting assurances he’s going to get a big name transfer before next season starts
This makes it more interesting....and would explain that the new accounts being submitted isn't the key part here.
Simon Stone @sistoney67
·
5h
On @dcfcofficial
, I have been told the interchangeable fixture list relates to potential for appeal against £100k fine + means possible points deduction would apply immediately. On revised accounts, any further breaches would trigger new charges.
Are derby on an embargo ?I assume that only relates to paid for transfers as they are linked to loads of players.
With regards to the governance of the EFL my point is that if a plc was turning over the size of the EFL their managers, lawyers and governance would be a lot better.
Reading around forums and twitter etc, a lot of people are totally confused by the state of play.
Some are saying why would Derby appeal the 100k and potentially get a deduction!
Obviously missing that it's the EFL who would appeal it!
Some are saying because the accounts only have to be filed by a week into the season that this rules out any further immediate punishment.
It doesn't - it's unrelated to the immediate punishment situation.
What is totally unclear, is
1)Have the EFL appealed? (presume yes)
2)When does this appeal get heard, and by whom? Plus, what's the timeframe?
3)Can Derby then appeal that outcome? And what is the time frame?
@Malone said:
Reading around forums and twitter etc, a lot of people are totally confused by the state of play.
Some are saying because the accounts only have to be filed by a week into the season that this rules out any further immediate punishment.
It doesn't - it's unrelated to the immediate punishment situation.
When you say "some", that's exactly what you said yourself about 40 minutes ago (about 8 posts up)
@ReturnToSenda said: @Malone I don't think the club can appeal the outcome of the appeal - because otherwise presumably Macclesfield would have tried that last season?
Yes probably but then they may have, just not publicly and in the weird and wacky world of the EFL anything is possible.
I struggle to understand who the EFL can appeal to though. Do they get another independent appeal body? Surely the idea of having someone independent look at this in the first place was to look at the facts of the case and make an independent, informed view of an appropriate ‘guilt’ and sanctions If this was done correctly on the available facts, any other body would reach the same conclusion. So unless the EFL are saying that the independent appeal body was incompetent (or new facts have come to light) there can be no grounds really for an appeal.
@ReturnToSenda said: @Malone I don't think the club can appeal the outcome of the appeal - because otherwise presumably Macclesfield would have tried that last season?
According to the Derby forum the independent disciplinary committee were the one's who first cleared Derby and then set the fine yesterday.
The 'leagues arbitoury panel' were the one's who upheld the EFL appeal.
And apparently if the EFL appeal against the leniency of Derby's sanction, then they will be the one's to make the decision on that.
Exactly how much influence the EFL have over the
'LAP' seems to be interesting.
I believe the EFL can appeal the current £100k fine and reprimand for Derby failing to provide accounts in accordance with FRS102, as could Derby. There would be no right to appeal the outcome of any such appeal. This shouldn't take long as it requires no new evidence to be submitted, just an argument be written for the appeal, and I'd imagine the EFL will be expediting it ASAP - no doubt RC is keeping them on the toes.
Once Derby have re-filed accounts in accordance with FRS102 I presume the EFL will be going over them in fine detail to determine if any new charges under FFP are necessary. These wouldn't affect us because any new charge would be in season 2021/22.
What is still a total f**king piss take is the whole EFL appeal to the original judgement and DC panel taking this long to come up with a decision. What a way to run our national game and supposedly the 5th best league in the world.
They are a shambles of the highest order and should ashamed of their conduct. Every other f**king sector has had to get on with business as normal this last 15 months and the NHS has done a remarkable job (dispute BJ and MH worst efforts). Why the EFL and DC have been allowed to delay the process because it was "difficult to get together" is beyond me - haven't they heard of Zoom!
(b) a ‘member’ or ‘fellow’ of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators,
in either case with at least 5 years post-qualification experience; and
90.3.2 two suitably qualified side members,
each of whom shall be appointed by Sports Resolutions (or such other body as the > Board may from time to time determine) PROVIDED ALWAYS that:
(a) all members must be independent of the parties and able to render an impartial decision;
(b) the parties may agree that the Disciplinary Commission be constituted by the Chairman sitting alone; and
(c) a ‘suitably qualified’ side member (if not a solicitor or barrister of at least five years post-qualification experience, shall be a person who is capable of rendering an impartial decision and not otherwise subject to a Disqualifying Condition (as defined in Appendix 3).
Sports Resolutions is an independent dispute service, so a company whose business is to arbitrate or oversee issues like this. They're the people that appoint the disciplinary commission. The commission is one solicitor, barrister, or arbitrator with 5 years' experience, plus two side members. The side members can either be lawyers with 5 years' experience, or independent individuals that aren't otherwise disqualified (Appendix 3 refers to the Owners' and Directors' Test, which covers anyone involved with another club, or with unspent criminal convictions, etc.)
94.1 A party to a Disciplinary Commission may appeal against a final order of the Disciplinary Commission (a ‘Disciplinary Appeal’).
94.2 A Disciplinary Appeal shall be heard by the League Arbitration Panel in accordance with the provisions of Section 9 of these Regulations, supplemented by the provisions of this Regulation.
Appealing a final decision of a disciplinary commission is a right that everyone involved has. When a decision is appealed, it goes to the League Arbitration Panel.
98 Appointing the Arbitrators
98.1 Subject to Regulation 98.6, the League Arbitration Panel shall comprise 3 members.
98.2 Within 14 days of service of the Notice of Arbitration, each party shall serve written notice on The League and all other parties to the arbitration of the details of the individual they wish to appoint to act as an arbitrator in the arbitration requested. Any nominee must be:
98.2.1 a solicitor of no less than 10 years’ admission or a barrister of no less than 10 years’ call; and
98.2.2 independent of the party appointing him and able to render an impartial decision.
98.3 Within 14 days of service of the Notice of Arbitration The League shall appoint (or shall ask the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators (or such other body as appointed by the Board from time to time) if The League is a party) to appoint) the third arbitrator who shall be a legally qualified person who shall sit as chairperson.
The League Arbitration Panel is three members. Each party to the arbitration appoints a member (so in this case, the EFL and Derby each appoint one). The Chartered Institute of Arbitrators appoints the third member. Each member needs to be lawyer with 10 years' experience, and independent of the party appointing them.
It's not clear whether the Panel this time around is made up by the same 3 individuals as previously, but they might be.
There is no right to appeal the decision of the League Arbitration Panel, so the decision is final.
Given the auditors' links to Derby County which are in the public domain, I hope that those who sit on the Independent Commission have passed more than a Derby County "sniff" test.
I'm not given to conspiracy theories but when you hear Fat Tony's coming back from British Honduras, it's bound to get tongues wagging.
Jeez, and my mate at the Laker Airways check-in desk said he had a lot of luggage.
@NiceCarrots said:
Given the auditors' links to Derby County which are in the public domain, I hope that those who sit on the Independent Commission have passed more than a Derby County "sniff" test.
I'm not given to conspiracy theories but when you hear Fat Tony's coming back from British Honduras, it's bound to get tongues wagging.
Jeez, and my mate at the Laker Airways check-in desk said he had a lot of luggage.
So are you saying that the so called independent disciplinary committee are rumoured to be favourable to Derby's course ?
Where as the leagues arbitoury panel who will hear the appeal, are more likely to give a fair and independent account ?
@NiceCarrots said:
Given the auditors' links to Derby County which are in the public domain, I hope that those who sit on the Independent Commission have passed more than a Derby County "sniff" test.
I'm not given to conspiracy theories but when you hear Fat Tony's coming back from British Honduras, it's bound to get tongues wagging.
Jeez, and my mate at the Laker Airways check-in desk said he had a lot of luggage.
So are you saying that the so called independent disciplinary committee are rumoured to be favourable to Derby's course ?
Where as the leagues arbitoury panel who will hear the appeal, are more likely to give a fair and independent account ?
FIFA is well known to be rife with corruption, so it would be highly surprising if some of our own league representatives weren't similarly influenced by "sweetners" in resolving disputes.
Comments
It looks to me like the EFL were expecting a points deduction and had prepared the interchangeable fixtures to account for a Derby appeal. Makes no sense this way and would be far better if they had said nothing about it.
Not seen anyone mention Sheff Wed today. I’m not sure how similar the charges were but if they are in any way similar I would expect them to be less than happy
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub Their members' collective turnover is pretty irrelevant to the EFL's effectiveness. Many of the members, it seems to me, don't want the EFL to be effective. To take the most obvious example, many owners, not actually being fit and proper persons, do not want there to be an effective fit and proper persons test.
I'm not seeking to argue that the EFL doesn't need to be much better. It just strikes me as slightly unfair that the regulators always get the lion's share of the blame when the real villains of the piece are the rule breakers. As Derby County are here.
My guess is that we will be preparing a squad for League 1 - it is the most likely outcome and we cannot gamble on signing players on the basis of a Championship budget.
In the unlikely event we are reinstated in the Championship, we can always try and pick up some players late in the window, although clearly this is not ideal.
I’ve absolutely no clue how it impacts on players contract negotiations - bonuses, clauses etc are surely largely dependent on our division status?
Behind the scenes, feel sure we’ll be preparing a legal challenge.
Is it just me or is the decision coming a week after the season starts?
Who sits on the Independent Commission and who made the appointments?
If you cheat for five years and everyone knows you're doing it, at what point does somebody DO something about it?
It seems corporate governance does not apply to the football industry, is there any other industries to whom it doesn't apply, as I cannot think of any others.
We've put man on the moon, invented covid vaccines in record time, invented the internet etc. surely getting football owners to abide by the rules is achievable too?
Until Derby submit the three missing years account they will remain under a transfer embargo.
One way or another the EFL are finally going to nail Derby for years of cooking the books.
Whether we benefit, or actually suffer from the two league fixture confusion remains to be seen.
But the longer no statement comes from Bobby C or the club, the more it looks like the EFL are keeping us informed via a back channel.
If Derby do have until 18th August to file new accounts then this is over, at least in terms of our interest.
In that case, unless Derby bizarrely opt to submit their presumably dodgy accounts now, and cause themselves problems, it is baffling the statement mentioned thus dual fixtures thing.
Their fans on that link sound pretty worried though.
Rooney is staying after accepting assurances he’s going to get a big name transfer before next season starts
That'd be the ultimate insult if they suddenly boot a massive wad on a transfer after escaping this!
This makes it more interesting....and would explain that the new accounts being submitted isn't the key part here.
Simon Stone
@sistoney67
·
5h
On
@dcfcofficial
, I have been told the interchangeable fixture list relates to potential for appeal against £100k fine + means possible points deduction would apply immediately. On revised accounts, any further breaches would trigger new charges.
Are derby on an embargo ?I assume that only relates to paid for transfers as they are linked to loads of players.
With regards to the governance of the EFL my point is that if a plc was turning over the size of the EFL their managers, lawyers and governance would be a lot better.
Reading around forums and twitter etc, a lot of people are totally confused by the state of play.
Some are saying why would Derby appeal the 100k and potentially get a deduction!
Obviously missing that it's the EFL who would appeal it!
Some are saying because the accounts only have to be filed by a week into the season that this rules out any further immediate punishment.
It doesn't - it's unrelated to the immediate punishment situation.
What is totally unclear, is
1)Have the EFL appealed? (presume yes)
2)When does this appeal get heard, and by whom? Plus, what's the timeframe?
3)Can Derby then appeal that outcome? And what is the time frame?
@Malone I don't think the club can appeal the outcome of the appeal - because otherwise presumably Macclesfield would have tried that last season?
When you say "some", that's exactly what you said yourself about 40 minutes ago (about 8 posts up)
The only certainty is that the club’s lawyers are about to book themselves a very expensive holiday.
Yes probably but then they may have, just not publicly and in the weird and wacky world of the EFL anything is possible.
I struggle to understand who the EFL can appeal to though. Do they get another independent appeal body? Surely the idea of having someone independent look at this in the first place was to look at the facts of the case and make an independent, informed view of an appropriate ‘guilt’ and sanctions If this was done correctly on the available facts, any other body would reach the same conclusion. So unless the EFL are saying that the independent appeal body was incompetent (or new facts have come to light) there can be no grounds really for an appeal.
None of this Derby stuff would have come into the public domain if it wasn't for Kieran Macguire, a saints if ever there was one.
Oops! I meant singular.
Mea culpa.
Go on Gaz!
Even better if they can't! Quickens things along!
According to the Derby forum the independent disciplinary committee were the one's who first cleared Derby and then set the fine yesterday.
The 'leagues arbitoury panel' were the one's who upheld the EFL appeal.
And apparently if the EFL appeal against the leniency of Derby's sanction, then they will be the one's to make the decision on that.
Exactly how much influence the EFL have over the
'LAP' seems to be interesting.
This man seems to reach new levels of impressive from one day to the next.
What a perfect one liner.
Brilliant speech from Gareth.
He is articulate, intelligent and charismatic - very lucky to have him, Dobbo and Lee.
Very interesting interview if you want to know anything about transfers, Derby etc.
I believe the EFL can appeal the current £100k fine and reprimand for Derby failing to provide accounts in accordance with FRS102, as could Derby. There would be no right to appeal the outcome of any such appeal. This shouldn't take long as it requires no new evidence to be submitted, just an argument be written for the appeal, and I'd imagine the EFL will be expediting it ASAP - no doubt RC is keeping them on the toes.
Once Derby have re-filed accounts in accordance with FRS102 I presume the EFL will be going over them in fine detail to determine if any new charges under FFP are necessary. These wouldn't affect us because any new charge would be in season 2021/22.
What is still a total f**king piss take is the whole EFL appeal to the original judgement and DC panel taking this long to come up with a decision. What a way to run our national game and supposedly the 5th best league in the world.
They are a shambles of the highest order and should ashamed of their conduct. Every other f**king sector has had to get on with business as normal this last 15 months and the NHS has done a remarkable job (dispute BJ and MH worst efforts). Why the EFL and DC have been allowed to delay the process because it was "difficult to get together" is beyond me - haven't they heard of Zoom!
I think the bold type is because that portion of the rant is between double *. You'll figure it out...
I like looking up rules, so if anyone wants to know who is deciding our future....
(These are from the EFL's rules and regulations
https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations )
Sports Resolutions is an independent dispute service, so a company whose business is to arbitrate or oversee issues like this. They're the people that appoint the disciplinary commission. The commission is one solicitor, barrister, or arbitrator with 5 years' experience, plus two side members. The side members can either be lawyers with 5 years' experience, or independent individuals that aren't otherwise disqualified (Appendix 3 refers to the Owners' and Directors' Test, which covers anyone involved with another club, or with unspent criminal convictions, etc.)
Appealing a final decision of a disciplinary commission is a right that everyone involved has. When a decision is appealed, it goes to the League Arbitration Panel.
The League Arbitration Panel is three members. Each party to the arbitration appoints a member (so in this case, the EFL and Derby each appoint one). The Chartered Institute of Arbitrators appoints the third member. Each member needs to be lawyer with 10 years' experience, and independent of the party appointing them.
It's not clear whether the Panel this time around is made up by the same 3 individuals as previously, but they might be.
There is no right to appeal the decision of the League Arbitration Panel, so the decision is final.
Given the auditors' links to Derby County which are in the public domain, I hope that those who sit on the Independent Commission have passed more than a Derby County "sniff" test.
I'm not given to conspiracy theories but when you hear Fat Tony's coming back from British Honduras, it's bound to get tongues wagging.
Jeez, and my mate at the Laker Airways check-in desk said he had a lot of luggage.
So are you saying that the so called independent disciplinary committee are rumoured to be favourable to Derby's course ?
Where as the leagues arbitoury panel who will hear the appeal, are more likely to give a fair and independent account ?
I for once welcome an independent appeal of the independent decision to appeal the appeal's appeal.
FIFA is well known to be rife with corruption, so it would be highly surprising if some of our own league representatives weren't similarly influenced by "sweetners" in resolving disputes.