One thing that springs to ming re: Barton incident. This wasn't a "flash reaction of the moment" as it were. There were clearly heated exchanges between them, pitch side as "seen on TV". Consequently, any "coming together" in the tunnel, regardless of what happened, was not a heat of the moment incident I would suggest. More a build up of rage/tempers that evidently led to physical contact of the pub brawl type.
@Malone According to MDH's link, two seperate cases of assaulting a woman, apparently on one occassion because she 'spurned his advances'. Two other arrests for assault that as I recall, but could be more as I was skim-reading.
I'd forgotten about Nile Ranger. I believe the youth of today would refer to him as a 'wasterman'.
If you give any credence to it, The Torygraph, is reporting that the injuries to the Barnsley manager were caused by him hitting his face on a metal railing. This may or may not have been during some "coming together" with Joey Barton or may just be a false account.
However, it might also explain why the Fleetwood player had to delete his tweet about the alleged event.
Perhaps it's why social media shouldn't always be relied upon to give a true balance account of an event?
It's like a goalkeeper innocently waving to their German teammate whilst putting his hand flat under his nose in order to shout 'Hurry up and take the picture ' being blown out of all proportion by the social.media.
@Wendoverman said:
It's like a goalkeeper innocently waving to their German teammate whilst putting his hand flat under his nose in order to shout 'Hurry up and take the picture ' being blown out of all proportion by the social.media.
FA statement reads like "Its difficult to believe anyone could be that thick, but we've had a good chat with him and now can't rule it out"
Re. "how many people" have done these salutes, I was thinking on this yesterday. I have to plead guilty because at school, back in the seventies, I and my mates would all have made such salutes at some point, thinking them highly humurous as a result of them frequently being made by perfomers on popular TV comedy shows of the time: Monty Python and Fawlty Towers come to mind, but Spike Milligan, Jim Davidson and I'm sure several others were doing it too.
I claim the same defence of ignorance as has been claimed by Mr. Hennesey. We had no idea what it really signified and very little understanding of what nazis were, other than knowing that calling someone a nazi was an insult.
I do feel, however, that a 32 year old should really have gained an understanding by now.
It's an interesting one, as compare it to say a swatiska. Now that has a status that wouldn't even be used in a joke, as its use is synonymous with the evil Hitler stood for. You simply cannot use it without knowing its connotation.
A little "salute" though, like you mention, was long used as a bit of a comedy response to someone acting like a "dictator", or just to even lampoon Hitler, as it often went hand in hand with the finger above lip to signify that ridiculous moustache.
These days, there's such a huge campaign by the media regarding PC and equality, it must be a minefield to be anyone in the public eye.
It would have been far far better for him to say "yeah, I was messing about and being a dick. Sorry, it looks really bad. I'm obviously not a Nazi but I won't do it again"
Story would have been over in a day.
I'm sure we've all said outrageous and unacceptable things whilst joking about with mates. Perhaps we should all think about that before getting the pitchforks out.
agree @Malone...as you say it was always done as a jokey way of undercutting someone (sometimes including a 'jawohl mein fuhrer'!) and not as a sign of support for the rise of international fascism, genocide and world domination. Freddie Starr an Keith Moon did not invade Poland for example. He should have just said that...but yes life is a minefield. I would like to apologise in advance for anything I might say or do that might offend someone I've never met who hears about it from someone else or who clutches their pearls should they see a picture of me saying or doing it. Sometimes years later!
Alternatively he knew exactly what he was doing, either with reference to spurs and their fans or an unknown individual.
Difficult to tell, but I'm no more a fan of letting him off with benefit of doubt just because "political correctness has gone mad" than I am of him being banned for months wrongly because racism generally is a bad thing.
If he got a ban for a week or so he couldn't complain too much, although some would say a guilty charge followed by a lenient sentence wasn't ideal.
He's extremely unlucky to be got with that photo if he really wasn't doing that on purpose and there's been too many high profile incidents for authorities to be seen to be ignoring racism.
Not sure whether it’s a good idea to post this but let’s go for it.
The man arrested in this incident (presumably Barton) is accused of racially aggravated assault.
It is reported that there was “an exchange of views” followed by an assault. It is reported that Stendel used derogatory words relating to Barton originating from Liverpool and Barton did similarly with Stendel being German.
Obviously we don’t know the truth of this matter, but let’s assume the reports are true.
1) is there a difference between one man calling the other “scally” and the other using “kraut”
2) assuming evidence shows that the dispute arose from a football matter, is it a worse crime if Barton assaulted Stendel screaming you f&£@ing kraut?
3) would your answer be different if Stendel was say of Pakistani origin rather than German origin
4) would your answer be different if this was a random attack in the street on a Pakistani guy because he was Pakistani compared to a random attack on a guy for no obvious reason.
I think my answers are
1) no
2) no
3) no
4) yes - because effectively that incident was an attack on all Pakistani people’s feelings of security.
Can’t honestly say I am sure though. Would welcome other constructive thoughts (but please no abuse)
@Chris said:
It’s called empathy. If I wouldn’t want people to say offensive things about me, why would I think it is ok for them to say them about other people?
I’m not black, but I’m still offended by what Ron Atkinson said. I’m not a woman, but Keys and Andy Gray’s comments were offensive to me.
I know what empathy means and I agree with you on the two instances that you have given. However, I think what Shev was referring to was the modern trend of faux outrage people express when someone says something with which they disagree. If it’s an obvious error of judgment like those you have mentioned that’s understandable, but too often it’s simply a divergence of opinion.
The trouble is @glasshalffull those kind of accusations of faux outrage are also regularly used online to silence reasonable debate and questioning.
I’m a member of several hobbyist sites in the US and am regularly disheartened by sensible people dismissing legitimate debate by labelling people ‘social justice warriors’.
When I read politics I thought one of the fundamental aims of a society was to have cohesive social justice, yet now it is a pejorative term of abuse. Then again, we used to have time for experts too!
It is interesting how words are deemed acceptable or non acceptable.
It all comes down to history and connotations, plus also intentions.
Pole, Brit, Aussie, Spaniard are all fine, the "p" word, which is taken from a country name after all, like the former examples, not at all fine. Similar with a word for Chinese people.
What's the difference? Colour and connotations.
Even, more borderline descriptions, like Kraut, Yank, Frog etc are all widely still used.
@DevC said:
Not sure whether it’s a good idea to post this but let’s go for it.
The man arrested in this incident (presumably Barton) is accused of racially aggravated assault.
It is reported that there was “an exchange of views” followed by an assault. It is reported that Stendel used derogatory words relating to Barton originating from Liverpool and Barton did similarly with Stendel being German.
Obviously we don’t know the truth of this matter, but let’s assume the reports are true.
1) is there a difference between one man calling the other “scally” and the other using “kraut”
2) assuming evidence shows that the dispute arose from a football matter, is it a worse crime if Barton assaulted Stendel screaming you f&£@ing kraut?
3) would your answer be different if Stendel was say of Pakistani origin rather than German origin
4) would your answer be different if this was a random attack in the street on a Pakistani guy because he was Pakistani compared to a random attack on a guy for no obvious reason.
I think my answers are
1) no
2) no
3) no
4) yes - because effectively that incident was an attack on all Pakistani people’s feelings of security.
Can’t honestly say I am sure though. Would welcome other constructive thoughts (but please no abuse)
Every time you think Dev can't hit peak Dev, he somehow climbs a higher mountain. Astonishing.
@Malone said:
It is interesting how words are deemed acceptable or non acceptable.
It all comes down to history and connotations, plus also intentions.
Pole, Brit, Aussie, Spaniard are all fine, the "p" word, which is taken from a country name after all, like the former examples, not at all fine. Similar with a word for Chinese people.
What's the difference? Colour and connotations.
Even, more borderline descriptions, like Kraut, Yank, Frog etc are all widely still used.
I'd say that one massive difference is that for years "Paki" was used as an insult by the national front type thugs, often accompanied by violence. You can't just ignore all that baggage and say it's the same as Aussie
Comments
i am thoroughly offended @HCblue
If they're looking to make some indignant humans, there's plenty of viable material to be found here.
One thing that springs to ming re: Barton incident. This wasn't a "flash reaction of the moment" as it were. There were clearly heated exchanges between them, pitch side as "seen on TV". Consequently, any "coming together" in the tunnel, regardless of what happened, was not a heat of the moment incident I would suggest. More a build up of rage/tempers that evidently led to physical contact of the pub brawl type.
That's the guy. Horrible lowlife.
@Malone According to MDH's link, two seperate cases of assaulting a woman, apparently on one occassion because she 'spurned his advances'. Two other arrests for assault that as I recall, but could be more as I was skim-reading.
I'd forgotten about Nile Ranger. I believe the youth of today would refer to him as a 'wasterman'.
If you give any credence to it, The Torygraph, is reporting that the injuries to the Barnsley manager were caused by him hitting his face on a metal railing. This may or may not have been during some "coming together" with Joey Barton or may just be a false account.
However, it might also explain why the Fleetwood player had to delete his tweet about the alleged event.
Perhaps it's why social media shouldn't always be relied upon to give a true balance account of an event?
If only there were some posters on here that had views regarding social media that they could share with us all.
POTD!
It's like a goalkeeper innocently waving to their German teammate whilst putting his hand flat under his nose in order to shout 'Hurry up and take the picture ' being blown out of all proportion by the social.media.
FA statement reads like "Its difficult to believe anyone could be that thick, but we've had a good chat with him and now can't rule it out"
I wonder how many people even for a second, have done one of these salutes.
Only difference is they're not famous, and being photographed.
But for the guy to claim ignorance to what it actually symbolises seems a stretch
Re. "how many people" have done these salutes, I was thinking on this yesterday. I have to plead guilty because at school, back in the seventies, I and my mates would all have made such salutes at some point, thinking them highly humurous as a result of them frequently being made by perfomers on popular TV comedy shows of the time: Monty Python and Fawlty Towers come to mind, but Spike Milligan, Jim Davidson and I'm sure several others were doing it too.
I claim the same defence of ignorance as has been claimed by Mr. Hennesey. We had no idea what it really signified and very little understanding of what nazis were, other than knowing that calling someone a nazi was an insult.
I do feel, however, that a 32 year old should really have gained an understanding by now.
It's an interesting one, as compare it to say a swatiska. Now that has a status that wouldn't even be used in a joke, as its use is synonymous with the evil Hitler stood for. You simply cannot use it without knowing its connotation.
A little "salute" though, like you mention, was long used as a bit of a comedy response to someone acting like a "dictator", or just to even lampoon Hitler, as it often went hand in hand with the finger above lip to signify that ridiculous moustache.
These days, there's such a huge campaign by the media regarding PC and equality, it must be a minefield to be anyone in the public eye.
It would have been far far better for him to say "yeah, I was messing about and being a dick. Sorry, it looks really bad. I'm obviously not a Nazi but I won't do it again"
Story would have been over in a day.
I'm sure we've all said outrageous and unacceptable things whilst joking about with mates. Perhaps we should all think about that before getting the pitchforks out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47963144
agree @Malone...as you say it was always done as a jokey way of undercutting someone (sometimes including a 'jawohl mein fuhrer'!) and not as a sign of support for the rise of international fascism, genocide and world domination. Freddie Starr an Keith Moon did not invade Poland for example. He should have just said that...but yes life is a minefield. I would like to apologise in advance for anything I might say or do that might offend someone I've never met who hears about it from someone else or who clutches their pearls should they see a picture of me saying or doing it. Sometimes years later!
Brilliant.
The world is full of some people being offended on someone else's behalf, and other people apologizing on someone else's behalf.
Alternatively he knew exactly what he was doing, either with reference to spurs and their fans or an unknown individual.
Difficult to tell, but I'm no more a fan of letting him off with benefit of doubt just because "political correctness has gone mad" than I am of him being banned for months wrongly because racism generally is a bad thing.
If he got a ban for a week or so he couldn't complain too much, although some would say a guilty charge followed by a lenient sentence wasn't ideal.
He's extremely unlucky to be got with that photo if he really wasn't doing that on purpose and there's been too many high profile incidents for authorities to be seen to be ignoring racism.
Not referencing the Hennessy case in particular, but Shev is bang on with this observation.
It’s called empathy. If I wouldn’t want people to say offensive things about me, why would I think it is ok for them to say them about other people?
I’m not black, but I’m still offended by what Ron Atkinson said. I’m not a woman, but Keys and Andy Gray’s comments were offensive to me.
Not sure whether it’s a good idea to post this but let’s go for it.
The man arrested in this incident (presumably Barton) is accused of racially aggravated assault.
It is reported that there was “an exchange of views” followed by an assault. It is reported that Stendel used derogatory words relating to Barton originating from Liverpool and Barton did similarly with Stendel being German.
Obviously we don’t know the truth of this matter, but let’s assume the reports are true.
1) is there a difference between one man calling the other “scally” and the other using “kraut”
2) assuming evidence shows that the dispute arose from a football matter, is it a worse crime if Barton assaulted Stendel screaming you f&£@ing kraut?
3) would your answer be different if Stendel was say of Pakistani origin rather than German origin
4) would your answer be different if this was a random attack in the street on a Pakistani guy because he was Pakistani compared to a random attack on a guy for no obvious reason.
I think my answers are
1) no
2) no
3) no
4) yes - because effectively that incident was an attack on all Pakistani people’s feelings of security.
Can’t honestly say I am sure though. Would welcome other constructive thoughts (but please no abuse)
I know what empathy means and I agree with you on the two instances that you have given. However, I think what Shev was referring to was the modern trend of faux outrage people express when someone says something with which they disagree. If it’s an obvious error of judgment like those you have mentioned that’s understandable, but too often it’s simply a divergence of opinion.
I am going to call house in this @DevC bingo game.
Presumably
Obviously
We don't know the truth
Assume
Can't honestly say I am sure
HOUSE!!!!!
The trouble is @glasshalffull those kind of accusations of faux outrage are also regularly used online to silence reasonable debate and questioning.
I’m a member of several hobbyist sites in the US and am regularly disheartened by sensible people dismissing legitimate debate by labelling people ‘social justice warriors’.
When I read politics I thought one of the fundamental aims of a society was to have cohesive social justice, yet now it is a pejorative term of abuse. Then again, we used to have time for experts too!
It is interesting how words are deemed acceptable or non acceptable.
It all comes down to history and connotations, plus also intentions.
Pole, Brit, Aussie, Spaniard are all fine, the "p" word, which is taken from a country name after all, like the former examples, not at all fine. Similar with a word for Chinese people.
What's the difference? Colour and connotations.
Even, more borderline descriptions, like Kraut, Yank, Frog etc are all widely still used.
Every time you think Dev can't hit peak Dev, he somehow climbs a higher mountain. Astonishing.
dreadful, dreadful stuff
I'd say that one massive difference is that for years "Paki" was used as an insult by the national front type thugs, often accompanied by violence. You can't just ignore all that baggage and say it's the same as Aussie
I'd say I covered that with
"It all comes down to history and connotations, plus also intentions."
yeah, you probably did to be fair