I'm not a Peterson fan and obviously if you get the right interviewer his sneering straw men go up in flames very quickly. Just that he is a million miles from yer milos, Joneses and farage. I agree though, the media likes sound and fury and often fails to intelligently challenge the guff that these idiots spout. Hence a bunch of scroungers who only attend Brussels to insult foreigners get more coverage than anyone with any cogent idea of reform or change.
@Wendoverman said:
I'm not a Peterson fan and obviously if you get the right interviewer his sneering straw men go up in flames very quickly. Just that he is a million miles from yer milos, Joneses and farage. I agree though, the media likes sound and fury and often fails to intelligently challenge the guff that these idiots spout. Hence a bunch of scroungers who only attend Brussels to insult foreigners get more coverage than anyone with any cogent idea of reform or change.
I like the fact that a man of such considerable learning has a place in public discourse. He may not be entirely correct in every aspect - who is - but I welcome, and enjoy, the chance to listen to someone who has some factual basis for his positions. And I love the message of personal responsibility that he puts forward, which I think is really the essence of his persona.
Not at all sure the Overton window theory really exists now in light of recent political developments. Increasingly so-called main stream media is becoming less relevant to.
People, especially the young, consume their current affairs on line, increasingly via social media. More often than not they seek out echo chambers that confirm and intensify their leanings. Before long leanings become entrenched and they are radicalised. The old centre ground is rapidly becoming depopulated. Look around the world and you see the same picture pretty much everywhere.
University student unions seek to no platform those whose views they deem unfit but essentially it’s a pointless exercise. Those who wish to hear those views simply access them online where they go unchallenged.
@drcongo said:
This thread got interesting. I’m with Chris on Peterson, I find his hot takes to have the depth of a Hallmark greetings card. And while I’m somewhere close to hcblue on the dangers of de-platforming, I think there’s something missing from your very reasoned arguments: that we no longer have the ability to have voices automatically weighted based on how fringe they are. Once upon a time flat earthers, meninists, climate change deniers and fascists would all have been given the same kind of limited, and justifiably sneering coverage by main stream media, but now these kind of fringe (and objectively wrong) views can create their own reach, and our media has started to validate them by mistaking reach for validity. Farage isn’t even an elected MP and yet is barely off our screens, giving a sheen of respectability to his loathesome views. Caroline Lucas of the Green Party is and elected MP and has made half the newsnight appearances Farage has.
In politics we have the concept of the Overton Window, the bit between the far left and the far right that is considered reasonable and acceptable by the public. UKIP and the Tories (especially May as Home Secretary) had dragged the Overton Window so far to the right that Brexit was almost inevitable, it enabled racists and xenophobes, making them think that their nasty little inner voice was actually a mainstream opinion. Despite being a massive let down on Brexit, Corbyn is an extremely important thing to have happened - he pulled the window back to the left, enabling a whole lot of us who believe in public services and basic compassion to feel like there is possibly a future that doesn’t involve descending into a hateful totalitarian state that punches down at refugees and siphons off money for the already rich.
I agree that there's been a considerable change in how information, or opinion, can reach us. I think I rather like that change though I quite accept that it is harder to discern the good from the bad simply by seeing where the message is coming from. However, I suggest that is not a bad thing since it encourages us to examine the value of the ideas more carefully when they come from unknown or unfamiliar sources. The consequence of it being harder to work out where the truth lies, of course, is that there is now the rapidly developing and unproductive tendency of people to find echo chambers where they only hear the ideas and perspectives with which they are comfortable. Nonetheless, exactly because the mainstream media rarely do a good job of presenting a broad variety of ideas unless they have a popular following as you describe, I like and value greatly the opportunity to explore a range of perspectives that the internet offers.
Funnily enough, I was reading about the Overton Window last night! If I understood what I read correctly, it describes the range of ideas acceptable to the public that politicians can be confident of gaining support for. When the window shifts, it is moved by the public not by the politicians. Thus, according to the theory, if there is an increase in the number of conservative or right wing ideas with public currency, it is because the public have thus ordained it and politicians - and Farage would be an excellent example, I think - have recognised it as so and campaigned accordingly. In other words, it is not the case that Farage and his ilk have changed the inclinations of the public but rather that they have identified that the public in fact were thinking a bit differently to how others might have thought (or, perhaps, wished!).
I have great confidence that the generation that is growing up with social media will learn to use it widely. Adopting the ‘information is power’ mantra that generation will empower itself and make their own rules about how to govern it.
“Please get out the new (road) if you can’t lend a hand...”
I heard Joey Barton nutted that Jordan.peterson in the bar at the Oxford union and then pushed him through the Overton window. Aaron Pierre held their coats.
@Wendoverman said:
I heard Joey Barton nutted that Jordan.peterson in the bar at the Oxford union and then pushed him through the Overton window. Aaron Pierre held their coats.
@Wendoverman said:
I heard Joey Barton nutted that Jordan.peterson in the bar at the Oxford union and then pushed him through the Overton window. Aaron Pierre held their coats.
Was Peterson on the platform when he was nutted? I think @HCblue and on balance, me, would like to think he was. I’d have preferred him taken down by incisive wit rather than by a divisive shit but Joey seems to have got the job done.
Am just listening to the peterson/ Zizek debate from the weekend on Youtube and finding it interesting. Zizek is not someone I've heard before. Recommended.
@HCblue As I understand modern (post war) politics, the Overton window is seen as something to be moved by politicians, especially the likes of Putin advisor Surkov. If I may recommend a book you and @bookertease might enjoy, Stranger than we can Imagine by the superb John Higgs - not hugely relevant to this discussion but it does somewhat cover @bookertease’s faith in the connected generation - a sentiment I didn’t overly share until I read this book.
Thanks, @drcongo. Sounds interesting: I'll look at it.
Re the Overton Window: I understand it to be a relatively modern idea which, in pure terms, relies on and describes the mood of the people rather than of the leaders. Of course, that's not to say that skilful leaders cannot attempt to manoeuvre the minds of the people so as to make their policies seem acceptable.
Thanks @drcongo definitely worth a read by the looks of it.
Slightly off-topic (but can’t imagine it would ever be on topic) by in terms of book recommendations for anyone wanting to better understand how and why humans behave as they do try The Ten Types of Human by Dexter Dias (https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/110/1109490/the-ten-types-of-human/9780099592549.html).
Simultaneously the most depressing and uplifting book I’ve ever read.
Comments
I'm not a Peterson fan and obviously if you get the right interviewer his sneering straw men go up in flames very quickly. Just that he is a million miles from yer milos, Joneses and farage. I agree though, the media likes sound and fury and often fails to intelligently challenge the guff that these idiots spout. Hence a bunch of scroungers who only attend Brussels to insult foreigners get more coverage than anyone with any cogent idea of reform or change.
I like the fact that a man of such considerable learning has a place in public discourse. He may not be entirely correct in every aspect - who is - but I welcome, and enjoy, the chance to listen to someone who has some factual basis for his positions. And I love the message of personal responsibility that he puts forward, which I think is really the essence of his persona.
Not at all sure the Overton window theory really exists now in light of recent political developments. Increasingly so-called main stream media is becoming less relevant to.
People, especially the young, consume their current affairs on line, increasingly via social media. More often than not they seek out echo chambers that confirm and intensify their leanings. Before long leanings become entrenched and they are radicalised. The old centre ground is rapidly becoming depopulated. Look around the world and you see the same picture pretty much everywhere.
University student unions seek to no platform those whose views they deem unfit but essentially it’s a pointless exercise. Those who wish to hear those views simply access them online where they go unchallenged.
God I hope something happens to Joey Barton soon so we can get back on thread... if not just go and find yourselves a room
I agree that there's been a considerable change in how information, or opinion, can reach us. I think I rather like that change though I quite accept that it is harder to discern the good from the bad simply by seeing where the message is coming from. However, I suggest that is not a bad thing since it encourages us to examine the value of the ideas more carefully when they come from unknown or unfamiliar sources. The consequence of it being harder to work out where the truth lies, of course, is that there is now the rapidly developing and unproductive tendency of people to find echo chambers where they only hear the ideas and perspectives with which they are comfortable. Nonetheless, exactly because the mainstream media rarely do a good job of presenting a broad variety of ideas unless they have a popular following as you describe, I like and value greatly the opportunity to explore a range of perspectives that the internet offers.
Funnily enough, I was reading about the Overton Window last night! If I understood what I read correctly, it describes the range of ideas acceptable to the public that politicians can be confident of gaining support for. When the window shifts, it is moved by the public not by the politicians. Thus, according to the theory, if there is an increase in the number of conservative or right wing ideas with public currency, it is because the public have thus ordained it and politicians - and Farage would be an excellent example, I think - have recognised it as so and campaigned accordingly. In other words, it is not the case that Farage and his ilk have changed the inclinations of the public but rather that they have identified that the public in fact were thinking a bit differently to how others might have thought (or, perhaps, wished!).
Yeah it has become a "yeah whatever" job hasn't it.
A few other words spring to mind as well
I have great confidence that the generation that is growing up with social media will learn to use it widely. Adopting the ‘information is power’ mantra that generation will empower itself and make their own rules about how to govern it.
“Please get out the new (road) if you can’t lend a hand...”
Power is power.
Ignorance is strength.
I heard Joey Barton nutted that Jordan.peterson in the bar at the Oxford union and then pushed him through the Overton window. Aaron Pierre held their coats.
Quite the microaggression.
Was Peterson on the platform when he was nutted? I think @HCblue and on balance, me, would like to think he was. I’d have preferred him taken down by incisive wit rather than by a divisive shit but Joey seems to have got the job done.
Am just listening to the peterson/ Zizek debate from the weekend on Youtube and finding it interesting. Zizek is not someone I've heard before. Recommended.
@HCblue As I understand modern (post war) politics, the Overton window is seen as something to be moved by politicians, especially the likes of Putin advisor Surkov. If I may recommend a book you and @bookertease might enjoy, Stranger than we can Imagine by the superb John Higgs - not hugely relevant to this discussion but it does somewhat cover @bookertease’s faith in the connected generation - a sentiment I didn’t overly share until I read this book.
It is indeed an excellent read, as is Higgs’ book charting the history of the KLF.
Thanks, @drcongo. Sounds interesting: I'll look at it.
Re the Overton Window: I understand it to be a relatively modern idea which, in pure terms, relies on and describes the mood of the people rather than of the leaders. Of course, that's not to say that skilful leaders cannot attempt to manoeuvre the minds of the people so as to make their policies seem acceptable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/us/politics/overton-window-democrats.html
https://www.mackinac.org/overtonwindow
Thanks @drcongo definitely worth a read by the looks of it.
Slightly off-topic (but can’t imagine it would ever be on topic) by in terms of book recommendations for anyone wanting to better understand how and why humans behave as they do try The Ten Types of Human by Dexter Dias (https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/110/1109490/the-ten-types-of-human/9780099592549.html).
Simultaneously the most depressing and uplifting book I’ve ever read.
Thanks @bookertease, that looks great.