@Glenactico Why do you say you "struggle to see a long term that doesn't involve exploring a stadium relocation"? Are you just saying that with these folks in charge and their ambitions, they're bound to do that work, or are you seriously suggesting that having got through 30 years at Adams Park, it's unsustainable to keep the football club going in the long term?
Not saying just because I don't like them, but Col U's new one is the worst, and the worst stadium once you get in. It is utterly soulless and dreadful
Forest Green's New Lawn is a lovely ground staffed by lovely people but unless you get there early the walk up the hill is a challenge for anyone not in the prime of life.
On capacity it's about the Championship, there was a suggestion that with fans allowed we would have sold out most games. With a bit of reformatting we could allow more away fans and the bigger name games and interested local neutrals plus a bit of general growth on our side it would not be a stretch
Northampton's stadium is pretty horrible to get out of post match. Like Wycombe, it's just the 1 access road and you can end up queueing for ages to get out.
I'm going to challenge the perceived wisdom that says we need better vehicular access if crowds are to go from the ~6000 we currently get to ~8000 on a regular basis.
Mostly as a thought exercise, so please follow my logic (if you can). And discuss...
If 2000 extra fans equates to approximately 1000-1200 extra cars then it's not access per se we need, it's car parking.
I don't think we could add more than 200ish more to the Upper car park anyway, so that's an additional 1000+ spaces to be found.
I don't think they readily exist in the immediate streets around AP, so they'll most likely have to be in the town centre or at existing park and ride sites or people coming by bus.
My suggestions would, therefore, be:-
Improve the pedestrian routes over the hill to the new park and ride in West Wycombe, and look to get help from WDC to improve that parking facility. Could a small minibus can get up Toweridge Lane from West Wycombe to a collection point just over the hill?
Improve signage on the approaches to AP informing all visiting spectators of the parking options available away from AP itself.
Make all parking on Hillbottom Rd pre-bookable via the club - although still keeping for the benefit of the charities as now.
Have traffic marshals stopping people entering Hillbottom Rd if they don't have pre-booked parking. I know this would be contentious but it's those cars getting "stuck" on Hillbottom Rd which create the pre-match gridlock.
Segregate the pedestrians walking down Hillbottom Rd from the cars, to allow buses to leave taking people to the town centre and Handy Cross P&R after the match.
Reinstate the local buses picking up in Hazlemere, Risboro, Marlow, Beaconsfield etc.
I'm of the opinion that anyone who currently parks at AP is well aware of it's access issues and has developed coping strategies. So I don't think they need better vehicular access.
The club don't control hillbottom road but it would be helpful if the club and council could in some way work together with the companies on the estate, this could bring them some income too and improve their access and security.
I remember them trying various things in Hillbottom Rd but you also need emergency vehicle access so it limits how you can use the road. Quite a steep hill for people to walk over too, not sure how that could be improved.
They've also already done a pretty good job on signage and that has helped.
Sure there's a lot that can be done but difficult to argue away disruption to residents if you wanted to expand the ground without a second road. I think that kicjs in if you ever want to go to 10 or 12k regularly rather than 8.
Does anyone have any idea where this second road would go exactly? Two steep hills, one covered in trees, the other leading to some pretty grand houses that I can’t imagine would be too chuffed at becoming an entrance / exit to a football ground.
@arnos_grove said:
Does anyone have any idea where this second road would go exactly? Two steep hills, one covered in trees, the other leading to some pretty grand houses that I can’t imagine would be too chuffed at becoming an entrance / exit to a football ground.
I would assume that the access basically has to come behind the away end and then curve around the back of the industrial estate (behind the Origin building) and run parallel with Hillbottom Road back to Lane End Road.
I'm not certain how that works with the topography but it's certainly the less damaging option to the local environment. To join up anywhere else you're going to have to go over a lot of forest or field.
It really is. TBH if we think we need a bigger stadium then I'd suggest our far better option is to move rather then improve access to AP and extend there. Obviously Rob is having discussions and must have some confidence, but I'm not sure we'd get planning to lay a road there before we even got into the cost and complexity of building the thing.
New roads are horrendously expensive and then you would have to find somewhere to park when those cars reached the stadium -really hard to see how that would be cost effective in isolation. A new housing development reached by the road may fund it but I believe all the empty land around the stadium is green built/agricultural land. Hard to see how that would get through.
Construction costs for a new ground (if a site could be found) would be very very high at the moment. Having said that land value for AP would also be high - unlikely to be available for residential due to planning constraints but actually demand for warehouse/industrial sheds are so high, land values for that use are similar to resi at present even in the South East. Still a substantial multi-million gap between SP of AP and purchase price/constuction cost of a new stadium I would have thought. Even if a new stadium lead to a 1000 increase in average gate, that would only generate £0.5m revenue per year. Hard to see the business case stacking up.
@Last_Quarter said:
It really is. TBH if we think we need a bigger stadium then I'd suggest our far better option is to move rather then improve access to AP and extend there. Obviously Rob is having discussions and must have some confidence, but I'm not sure we'd get planning to lay a road there before we even got into the cost and complexity of building the thing.
I'm not sure planning permission for a new stadium + car park + approach road + whatever commercial stuff you'd probably want bundled in would be any easier than it would be for one road on private property.
I'm inclined to agree with you @StrongestTeam but I'm struck this week by how supportive Oxfordshire CC are to Oxford's proposed move and the real likelihood that they could build on land on the Oxford greenbelt. Maybe with the council's support we could find a similar site in an area ear-marked for development around High Wycombe - where there's a will there's a way and all that. Handy Cross seems like the obvious place to build a new stadium but no idea of land availability there.
None of this is me saying we should move though. But if the aim is for us to become a sustainable Championship club then the AP access and capacity is going to hold us back somewhat, and I suspect is going to be a very difficult, maybe even impossible problem to solve in that location.
Buy the first industrial unit at the bottom of Hillbottom Road (first on the left as you come up the road towards the stadium) and build a multi-storey car park.
Wycombe Abbey has far more land than a school needs - build a new ground there. I think I'm right in saying that's where we played right back at the beginning anyway?
Comments
Sadly?> @our_frank said:
The former
A new road improves access, but it doesn't change the fact that AP is in an utterly rubbish location. Possibly the worst-located ground in the EFL?
Now that is a good start for a footie quiz. What's the worst located ground in the EFL?
I know others are more out of town, but they usually have some amenities in the vicinity. We don't even have that.
Not saying just because I don't like them, but Col U's new one is the worst, and the worst stadium once you get in. It is utterly soulless and dreadful
Forest Green's New Lawn is a lovely ground staffed by lovely people but unless you get there early the walk up the hill is a challenge for anyone not in the prime of life.
Yeovil
Walsall is terrible access really hopeless.
On capacity it's about the Championship, there was a suggestion that with fans allowed we would have sold out most games. With a bit of reformatting we could allow more away fans and the bigger name games and interested local neutrals plus a bit of general growth on our side it would not be a stretch
I haven't been, but doesn't it have its own train station?
AP is horrible to get to, but I would really miss the picturesque surroundings. It's got a really unique feel, surrounded by the fields and trees.
Yeah, a good location aesthetically, just not practically
I'm sure we can turn our eyes to our 3 sided visitors this weekend for a good answer here. "You go ten pin bowling before the game" and all that...
If the extensions include extra revenue producing facilities such as another bar/ more corporate facilities then I expect that's the bigger driver.
If we increased the size of the old main stand it would allow us to sell more away tickets too
Northampton's stadium is pretty horrible to get out of post match. Like Wycombe, it's just the 1 access road and you can end up queueing for ages to get out.
I'm going to challenge the perceived wisdom that says we need better vehicular access if crowds are to go from the ~6000 we currently get to ~8000 on a regular basis.
Mostly as a thought exercise, so please follow my logic (if you can). And discuss...
If 2000 extra fans equates to approximately 1000-1200 extra cars then it's not access per se we need, it's car parking.
I don't think we could add more than 200ish more to the Upper car park anyway, so that's an additional 1000+ spaces to be found.
I don't think they readily exist in the immediate streets around AP, so they'll most likely have to be in the town centre or at existing park and ride sites or people coming by bus.
My suggestions would, therefore, be:-
Improve the pedestrian routes over the hill to the new park and ride in West Wycombe, and look to get help from WDC to improve that parking facility. Could a small minibus can get up Toweridge Lane from West Wycombe to a collection point just over the hill?
Improve signage on the approaches to AP informing all visiting spectators of the parking options available away from AP itself.
Make all parking on Hillbottom Rd pre-bookable via the club - although still keeping for the benefit of the charities as now.
Have traffic marshals stopping people entering Hillbottom Rd if they don't have pre-booked parking. I know this would be contentious but it's those cars getting "stuck" on Hillbottom Rd which create the pre-match gridlock.
Segregate the pedestrians walking down Hillbottom Rd from the cars, to allow buses to leave taking people to the town centre and Handy Cross P&R after the match.
Reinstate the local buses picking up in Hazlemere, Risboro, Marlow, Beaconsfield etc.
I'm of the opinion that anyone who currently parks at AP is well aware of it's access issues and has developed coping strategies. So I don't think they need better vehicular access.
Or a chairlift
The club don't control hillbottom road but it would be helpful if the club and council could in some way work together with the companies on the estate, this could bring them some income too and improve their access and security.
I remember them trying various things in Hillbottom Rd but you also need emergency vehicle access so it limits how you can use the road. Quite a steep hill for people to walk over too, not sure how that could be improved.
They've also already done a pretty good job on signage and that has helped.
Sure there's a lot that can be done but difficult to argue away disruption to residents if you wanted to expand the ground without a second road. I think that kicjs in if you ever want to go to 10 or 12k regularly rather than 8.
Does anyone have any idea where this second road would go exactly? Two steep hills, one covered in trees, the other leading to some pretty grand houses that I can’t imagine would be too chuffed at becoming an entrance / exit to a football ground.
Tunnel?
I would assume that the access basically has to come behind the away end and then curve around the back of the industrial estate (behind the Origin building) and run parallel with Hillbottom Road back to Lane End Road.
I'm not certain how that works with the topography but it's certainly the less damaging option to the local environment. To join up anywhere else you're going to have to go over a lot of forest or field.
Just looked on google earth...that's one big broccoli patch behind the Frank Adams
It really is. TBH if we think we need a bigger stadium then I'd suggest our far better option is to move rather then improve access to AP and extend there. Obviously Rob is having discussions and must have some confidence, but I'm not sure we'd get planning to lay a road there before we even got into the cost and complexity of building the thing.
New roads are horrendously expensive and then you would have to find somewhere to park when those cars reached the stadium -really hard to see how that would be cost effective in isolation. A new housing development reached by the road may fund it but I believe all the empty land around the stadium is green built/agricultural land. Hard to see how that would get through.
Construction costs for a new ground (if a site could be found) would be very very high at the moment. Having said that land value for AP would also be high - unlikely to be available for residential due to planning constraints but actually demand for warehouse/industrial sheds are so high, land values for that use are similar to resi at present even in the South East. Still a substantial multi-million gap between SP of AP and purchase price/constuction cost of a new stadium I would have thought. Even if a new stadium lead to a 1000 increase in average gate, that would only generate £0.5m revenue per year. Hard to see the business case stacking up.
They really did put Adams Park in a poor location unfortunately. Not planning for Championship football.
I'm not sure planning permission for a new stadium + car park + approach road + whatever commercial stuff you'd probably want bundled in would be any easier than it would be for one road on private property.
I'm inclined to agree with you @StrongestTeam but I'm struck this week by how supportive Oxfordshire CC are to Oxford's proposed move and the real likelihood that they could build on land on the Oxford greenbelt. Maybe with the council's support we could find a similar site in an area ear-marked for development around High Wycombe - where there's a will there's a way and all that. Handy Cross seems like the obvious place to build a new stadium but no idea of land availability there.
None of this is me saying we should move though. But if the aim is for us to become a sustainable Championship club then the AP access and capacity is going to hold us back somewhat, and I suspect is going to be a very difficult, maybe even impossible problem to solve in that location.
Buy the first industrial unit at the bottom of Hillbottom Road (first on the left as you come up the road towards the stadium) and build a multi-storey car park.
I think he’s going to reinstate kids go free with a paying adult or something along those lines
Wycombe Abbey has far more land than a school needs - build a new ground there. I think I'm right in saying that's where we played right back at the beginning anyway?