I did see the tweet from PC but completely forget to post it here. Personally I can't see any way that we have a legal claim, even if morally I think Derby should pay up.
Weird, Sounds like it's a holding claim on the off chance, to get us in the queue if there's any money going to creditors from the takeover or administration.
Seems a real long shot unless there's also some kind of further charge coming from the EFL and/or us actually suing them when they settle down.
Anyone can put a claim in but surely theoretical ones are at the bottom of the list.
Because for me it is part of a culture where suing someone for perceived harm is the automatic response, regardless of the various (usually complex) issues involved.
It is a process where lawyers get rich but justice is rarely the winner.
I would much rather we had not got involved (but given our owners background not surprised).
There is a quite interesting theory in the messages below the article that it may even make it less likely the EFL will impose a 9 point deduction on Derby as a result of their irregularities because of our action.
Unlikely, but that would definitely be depressing.
@Wendoverman said:
Sadly, I do think we need to put it behind us.
I have to agree with you there.
We’ll just end up spending more money going after an ever diminishing return. There’s an opportunity for a reputational gain though which I think we should seize with both hands.
I think us putting in a letter to be considered a creditor in this situation is about as minimal a step as we could have done.
I feel uncomfortable we are asking a debt ridden club for money.
I am even More uncomfortable that any prospective buyer of Derby will be benefiting from the cheating that has gone on by past owners.
I believe any new owners would need to settle or agree to settle outstanding debts before they come out of admin. The fact they kept their place and the revenue that comes with being in championship means any debts to be settled are less than they would be had they gone into league 1. That is a direct benefit for any new owner for the past owners cheating. He spends less money.
I don’t know what is the best option here. But I don’t think football can allow it to just be swept under the carpet and hope it doesn’t happen again.
Being on the list of potential creditors feels like the least worst option.
Mr. Couhig has every right to make his case and the idea of having to bite your lip for fear of upsetting a club that has continually gamed the system is plain daft.
Have to disagree with most posters on this issue. Our club has been disadvantaged because Derby allegedly broke the rules. Rob’s claim for compensation looks unlikely to succeed, but what is the problem with him taking this action? It’s surely better than taking the moral high ground which won’t help us and talk of improving our ‘reputation’ is naive. A combination of our promotion on PPG and our perceived playing style means we probably aren’t the most popular club in League One anyway.
Because for me it is part of a culture where suing someone for perceived harm is the automatic response, regardless of the various (usually complex) issues involved.
It is a process where lawyers get rich but justice is rarely the winner.
I would much rather we had not got involved (but given our owners background not surprised).
There is a quite interesting theory in the messages below the article that it may even make it less likely the EFL will impose a 9 point deduction on Derby as a result of their irregularities because of our action.
Unlikely, but that would definitely be depressing.
Not really football related but the counter to this is that many people are putting up with bs of one kind or another with no ability to get any recourse. It's almost impossible to get legal aid any more or sue for something like wrongful dismissal, bad landlords, not getting paid etc unless you are already wealthy. Most lawyers (not the TV ones) get fixed fees and are generally sodded about for months, MPs go on telly banging on about harder sentences whilst underfunding the court system and failing victims and those accused.
If Rob takes Derby to court in some way and it's found to be spurious he will made to pay for the whole process. That's probably why he's put in this claim in this way, if they can convince the administrator or the prospective owners that it's easier to pay us off than go to court that might be how we get something.
I’d agree if there was a reasonable chance of success but spending money on action that is unlikely to succeed does not make sound financial sense to me. I can however see the appeal of wanting some kind of justice served.
The trouble is the EFL have indicated at almost every stage that they are not willing or able to sanction Derby in a way that would open up a compensation claim.
Have to say I am very uncomfortable with our actions here.
Derby behaved very badly but actually that was mostly well before we entered that division. If anyone suffered as a consequence, it was clubs relegated in previous seasons. Their past offending and that of Sheffield Wed COULD have provided us a relegation saving lifeline that while we came close, we did not earn on the pitch.
With Derby in administration, they are by definition fighting for the survival of that club. We seem to have deliberately put a spanner in the works complicating that process and hence reducing to some extent the probability of survival. I presume our hope is that the administrator/any new prospective owner might chuck us a few quid to buy us off and avoid the buggeration factor.
In the US world that might be acceptable business practice. Its more of a dog eat dog world there. It doesn't fit well into our culture which is more based on doing the right thing. I am disappointed at our behaviour here. If we were in administration and another club did that to us, I would be outraged at their actions.
I like what Couhig has done and regardless of the conclusion I support the action. Low cost from my understanding but a marker for the Derby administrator.
I wonder if anyone would have known if Phil hadn't asked
You worry about doing the ‘right thing’, Rob worries about the impact Derby’s alleged misdemeanours had on our club. Are you outraged about Derby’s alleged breaking of the rules in the first place and how that might have affected other Championship clubs before we were promoted?
@DevC said:
Have to say I am very uncomfortable with our actions here.
Derby behaved very badly but actually that was mostly well before we entered that division. If anyone suffered as a consequence, it was clubs relegated in previous seasons. Their past offending and that of Sheffield Wed COULD have provided us a relegation saving lifeline that while we came close, we did not earn on the pitch.
With Derby in administration, they are by definition fighting for the survival of that club. We seem to have deliberately put a spanner in the works complicating that process and hence reducing to some extent the probability of survival. I presume our hope is that the administrator/any new prospective owner might chuck us a few quid to buy us off and avoid the buggeration factor.
In the US world that might be acceptable business practice. Its more of a dog eat dog world there. It doesn't fit well into our culture which is more based on doing the right thing. I am disappointed at our behaviour here. If we were in administration and another club did that to us, I would be outraged at their actions.
I would be more outraged at our own actions if we were in admin due to such blatant cheating.
I agree other relegated clubs have a right to feel aggrieved as their cheating was over multiple years- we should really be doing this in tandem with all clubs who left the championship instead of Derby.... Charlton, Rotherham etc
I’m not sure anyone is saying Derby acted within the rules with their hokey accounting. The issue for us last season was the level and timing of any sanction and as far as I can tell Derby followed the appeals process as set out by the EFL.
Its all very well being outraged but I just don’t see a route to compensating Wycombe or the other Championship clubs you mention.
If you have an insight into how this might work, please enlighten me, I’m happy to be wrong!
I must say I don't understand it at all. Our grievance is surely that the punishment they have been given, ie the points deduction, ought to have been applied last season rather than this season.
That's got nothing to do with Derby though has it?
As for any spurious claims that their "cheating" allowed them to stay up instead of us, I just don't see the argument. Derby were an abysmal side last season. How much worse would they have been had they done their accounts differently?
And when you follow it all through logically it doesn't make any sense anyway. Because if you conclude that what they did have them an onfield advantage, then you have to conclude that it did in all of their games last season and I can't see how you can rewrite history to such an extent to prove it cost us our place in the league
@eric_plant said:
I must say I don't understand it at all. Our grievance is surely that the punishment they have been given, ie the points deduction, ought to have been applied last season rather than this season.
That's got nothing to do with Derby though has it?
As for any spurious claims that their "cheating" allowed them to stay up instead of us, I just don't see the argument. Derby were an abysmal side last season. How much worse would they have been had they done their accounts differently?
And when you follow it all through logically it doesn't make any sense anyway. Because if you conclude that what they did have them an onfield advantage, then you have to conclude that it did in all of their games last season and I can't see how you can rewrite history to such an extent to prove it cost us our place in the league
It's quite simple really, if they didn't cook the books they wouldn't have had some of the players who gained them points.
And their appeal was entirely frivolous, they withheld information that had because they knew they would be found guilty and have points deducted, their chairman said as much himself.
The EFL are useless, but Derby were entirely calculated with their deceit
Comments
I did see the tweet from PC but completely forget to post it here. Personally I can't see any way that we have a legal claim, even if morally I think Derby should pay up.
Is it technically legal action? Rob himself says he's not sure. Sounds like we've just sent them an invoice.
Still a depressing development
How so?
If we titled the invoice 'Depreciating and Book-Cooking Services Rendered' they might pay it without looking into it too closely.
Weird, Sounds like it's a holding claim on the off chance, to get us in the queue if there's any money going to creditors from the takeover or administration.
Seems a real long shot unless there's also some kind of further charge coming from the EFL and/or us actually suing them when they settle down.
Anyone can put a claim in but surely theoretical ones are at the bottom of the list.
I’m sure the EFL would rather we stared at our feet whilst wringing our cap and thanking everyone for our season in the championship
Because for me it is part of a culture where suing someone for perceived harm is the automatic response, regardless of the various (usually complex) issues involved.
It is a process where lawyers get rich but justice is rarely the winner.
I would much rather we had not got involved (but given our owners background not surprised).
There is a quite interesting theory in the messages below the article that it may even make it less likely the EFL will impose a 9 point deduction on Derby as a result of their irregularities because of our action.
Unlikely, but that would definitely be depressing.
Sadly, I do think we need to put it behind us.
I have to agree with you there.
We’ll just end up spending more money going after an ever diminishing return. There’s an opportunity for a reputational gain though which I think we should seize with both hands.
Also agree
Yes put it behind us. We need to focus on automatic promotion now.
I think us putting in a letter to be considered a creditor in this situation is about as minimal a step as we could have done.
I feel uncomfortable we are asking a debt ridden club for money.
I am even More uncomfortable that any prospective buyer of Derby will be benefiting from the cheating that has gone on by past owners.
I believe any new owners would need to settle or agree to settle outstanding debts before they come out of admin. The fact they kept their place and the revenue that comes with being in championship means any debts to be settled are less than they would be had they gone into league 1. That is a direct benefit for any new owner for the past owners cheating. He spends less money.
I don’t know what is the best option here. But I don’t think football can allow it to just be swept under the carpet and hope it doesn’t happen again.
Being on the list of potential creditors feels like the least worst option.
We were cheated, they should pay for the financial losses incurred. The end
Mr. Couhig has every right to make his case and the idea of having to bite your lip for fear of upsetting a club that has continually gamed the system is plain daft.
Have to disagree with most posters on this issue. Our club has been disadvantaged because Derby allegedly broke the rules. Rob’s claim for compensation looks unlikely to succeed, but what is the problem with him taking this action? It’s surely better than taking the moral high ground which won’t help us and talk of improving our ‘reputation’ is naive. A combination of our promotion on PPG and our perceived playing style means we probably aren’t the most popular club in League One anyway.
Not really football related but the counter to this is that many people are putting up with bs of one kind or another with no ability to get any recourse. It's almost impossible to get legal aid any more or sue for something like wrongful dismissal, bad landlords, not getting paid etc unless you are already wealthy. Most lawyers (not the TV ones) get fixed fees and are generally sodded about for months, MPs go on telly banging on about harder sentences whilst underfunding the court system and failing victims and those accused.
If Rob takes Derby to court in some way and it's found to be spurious he will made to pay for the whole process. That's probably why he's put in this claim in this way, if they can convince the administrator or the prospective owners that it's easier to pay us off than go to court that might be how we get something.
I’d agree if there was a reasonable chance of success but spending money on action that is unlikely to succeed does not make sound financial sense to me. I can however see the appeal of wanting some kind of justice served.
The trouble is the EFL have indicated at almost every stage that they are not willing or able to sanction Derby in a way that would open up a compensation claim.
Have to say I am very uncomfortable with our actions here.
Derby behaved very badly but actually that was mostly well before we entered that division. If anyone suffered as a consequence, it was clubs relegated in previous seasons. Their past offending and that of Sheffield Wed COULD have provided us a relegation saving lifeline that while we came close, we did not earn on the pitch.
With Derby in administration, they are by definition fighting for the survival of that club. We seem to have deliberately put a spanner in the works complicating that process and hence reducing to some extent the probability of survival. I presume our hope is that the administrator/any new prospective owner might chuck us a few quid to buy us off and avoid the buggeration factor.
In the US world that might be acceptable business practice. Its more of a dog eat dog world there. It doesn't fit well into our culture which is more based on doing the right thing. I am disappointed at our behaviour here. If we were in administration and another club did that to us, I would be outraged at their actions.
I like what Couhig has done and regardless of the conclusion I support the action. Low cost from my understanding but a marker for the Derby administrator.
I wonder if anyone would have known if Phil hadn't asked
You worry about doing the ‘right thing’, Rob worries about the impact Derby’s alleged misdemeanours had on our club. Are you outraged about Derby’s alleged breaking of the rules in the first place and how that might have affected other Championship clubs before we were promoted?
I would be more outraged at our own actions if we were in admin due to such blatant cheating.
I agree other relegated clubs have a right to feel aggrieved as their cheating was over multiple years- we should really be doing this in tandem with all clubs who left the championship instead of Derby.... Charlton, Rotherham etc
I’m not sure anyone is saying Derby acted within the rules with their hokey accounting. The issue for us last season was the level and timing of any sanction and as far as I can tell Derby followed the appeals process as set out by the EFL.
Its all very well being outraged but I just don’t see a route to compensating Wycombe or the other Championship clubs you mention.
If you have an insight into how this might work, please enlighten me, I’m happy to be wrong!
I must say I don't understand it at all. Our grievance is surely that the punishment they have been given, ie the points deduction, ought to have been applied last season rather than this season.
That's got nothing to do with Derby though has it?
As for any spurious claims that their "cheating" allowed them to stay up instead of us, I just don't see the argument. Derby were an abysmal side last season. How much worse would they have been had they done their accounts differently?
And when you follow it all through logically it doesn't make any sense anyway. Because if you conclude that what they did have them an onfield advantage, then you have to conclude that it did in all of their games last season and I can't see how you can rewrite history to such an extent to prove it cost us our place in the league
Just listening on talksport of the Derby takeover and they mentioned two clubs after compensation..one Wycombe and the other one was Boro.
Simple answer to this debate: Rob is a lawyer, it’s what they do.
All our efforts should be channelled into trying to get promotion, not fighting battles we can't win.
It's quite simple really, if they didn't cook the books they wouldn't have had some of the players who gained them points.
And their appeal was entirely frivolous, they withheld information that had because they knew they would be found guilty and have points deducted, their chairman said as much himself.
The EFL are useless, but Derby were entirely calculated with their deceit
I don't think we're quite at the point of needing our septuagenarian chairman on the pitch just yet!
I can see your point @glasshalffull but I simply don’t want us being distracted from our main aim of getting back to the Championship or waste money.