I don’t know if anyone has listened to a podcast called ‘Hitting the areas’ but an episode launched on the 17th May which was essentially a long interview with Pete Couhig, it’s worth a listen and he talks about moneyball and confirms that WWFC are already using this.
I assume as Dobbo explained in the recent book they will continue to check on the character of the players that are identified by Deep Thought before signing.
@Wendoverman said:
I assume as Dobbo explained in the recent book they will continue to check on the character of the players that are identified by Deep Thought before signing.
One of the desirable skills in in the person spec is for applicants to be certified in the MMPI-3, the Hare and Voight-Kampff test
Now we’re getting into the realms of science fiction, aren’t we ? I daren't go back to the job specification/requirements in case something of that sort (whatever it is) really is required !
Seriously though, joking aside, this whole concept sounds to me like a bridge too far.
@micra said:
Now we’re getting into the realms of science fiction, aren’t we ? I daren't go back to the job specification/requirements in case something of that sort (whatever it is) really is required !
Seriously though, joking aside, this whole concept sounds to me like a bridge too far.
If I thought a full time analyst would bring to bear even better insights into players’ character and all round attributes than GA and Dobbo have demonstrated, then I might be persuaded, @mooneyman.
I think if I was GA I would see it as interference rather than assistance but then I suppose he and Dobbo have been persuaded. I see a domestic parallel. Mrs micra often accuses me of interfering when I try to help but I must admit that I can see how my slow and clumsy efforts could be irritating!
@micra said:
I think if I was GA I would see it as interference rather than assistance but then I suppose he and Dobbo have been persuaded. I see a domestic parallel. Mrs micra often accuses me of interfering when I try to help but I must admit that I can see how my slow and clumsy efforts could be irritating!
This role must have been a request from Ainsworth and part of the commitments Couhig said he made to the manager in recent meetings. Adding this role over Ainsworth's head brings a big problem so I don't see why that is even an option.
My interest now turns to the matter of how the success of the new arrangements will be quantified. Some new signings will instantly impress, some will take time to acclimatise and some will disappoint. ‘Twas ever thus. But, overall, comparing the success of the scheme with that of the more traditional approach will not be easy.
My interest now turns to the matter of how the success of the new arrangements will be quantified. Some new signings will instantly impress, some will take time to acclimatise and some will disappoint. ‘Twas ever thus. But, overall, comparing the success of the scheme with that of the more traditional approach will not be easy.
I'm trying to remember a signing you admitted was a poor one. You're a kindly chap and that's to your general credit of course.
But when you thought Phillips and Pattison had potential, when most thought they were well off the pace even in league one, I did wonder.
I deliberately used ‘disappoint’ @Malone because, off the top of my head, I can’t think of any recent signings who have been poor. Some of our best and most respected signings have had poor games - eg Jason McCarthy when asked to perform at left back and ? centre back - and, to be perfectly honest, I have been disappointed with Daryl Horgan. He promises so much and is clearly quick and skilful but with very little ‘end product’ - ie goals and assists.
So far as Phillips is concerned, I was as surprised as anyone that he’d (in effect) been given another chance. Well, of course, in the event, he didn’t get that chance. So, I’d have to call that a poor signing.
I see Pattison in a very different light. Very little evidence to go on but GA and Dobbo clearly had great belief in him and, as I’ve said elsewhere, I thought he performed very well against an admittedly below par Bournemouth and I hoped at the time that he would get more game time. I’m sure he will make a name for himself at Harrogate but I’m not prepared to say what kind of name, of course!
Brentford the ultimate example of the the success this kind of approach can bring. If we can replicate even a smidgen of the success they've had, we'll be laughing.
If this is really objective rather than subjective analysis of player performance and given that every analyst is analysing same data, doesn’t that mean that every club will conclude that the same player is the best one?
@DevC said:
If this is really objective rather than subjective analysis of player performance and given that every analyst is analysing same data, doesn’t that mean that every club will conclude that the same player is the best one?
Well, one of the key purposes of this approach is to identify and recruit the players best suited to your individual system, philosophy etc. - and that will lead different clubs to look at different players in different leagues in the first place. No doubt there is some overlap, with clubs identifying the same player/s, but there's always going to be an element of subjectivity - not least because the data will be interpreted in different ways, and no two analysts will come to exactly the same conclusion based on the combination of that and the 'eye test'.
It's hardly anything groundbreaking, all teams are already doing this and so are we with Josh Hart. This is just expanding the team and adding more people to the staff as would be expected for an upwardly mobile, Championship aiming club.
@Croider said:
It's hardly anything groundbreaking, all teams are already doing this and so are we with Josh Hart. This is just expanding the team and adding more people to the staff as would be expected for an upwardly mobile, Championship aiming club.
It's not groundbreaking, but it's certainly not all clubs who are doing it - not in League One anyway. This is a big step in the right direction for us, even if I'm sure it's been planned for quite a while.
Just had a look at the staff list on the club site and I wasn't aware we employed a GPS Analyst. We'll have a sleep coach before you know it! (Yes, that is a real thing; Brentford have one.)
I guess it’s a big step forward if you believe in this stuff. For those less convinced it seems like money spent that could have been used to hire another promising young player.
I suppose it depends on whether this is GA asking for this or whether it’s the owners imposing something he is unconvinced by. I’d hate for GA to want to sign a player but getting overruled by a computer saying no.
Part of my skepticism I suspect is driven by not really understanding what it is. Could you briefly summarise. GA has heard on the grapevine that promising young winger Gaz Room is coming available. He has asked you the analyst to have a look. What happens next?
What League 1 clubs don't have an analytics 'department'
Dev, who do you think is telling Ainsworth that Gaz Room is available? Most high performers in the EFL are well known, the value is in the PL U23 leagues where games are harder to attend in person. Thats when scouting programs like wyscout and a specialist to watch the clips and digest the data prove their worth.
Comments
I don’t know if anyone has listened to a podcast called ‘Hitting the areas’ but an episode launched on the 17th May which was essentially a long interview with Pete Couhig, it’s worth a listen and he talks about moneyball and confirms that WWFC are already using this.
On Spotify etc
I assume as Dobbo explained in the recent book they will continue to check on the character of the players that are identified by Deep Thought before signing.
One of the desirable skills in in the person spec is for applicants to be certified in the MMPI-3, the Hare and Voight-Kampff test
Now we’re getting into the realms of science fiction, aren’t we ? I daren't go back to the job specification/requirements in case something of that sort (whatever it is) really is required !
Seriously though, joking aside, this whole concept sounds to me like a bridge too far.
Didn't imagine you being a "luddite" @micra!
If I thought a full time analyst would bring to bear even better insights into players’ character and all round attributes than GA and Dobbo have demonstrated, then I might be persuaded, @mooneyman.
I think if I was GA I would see it as interference rather than assistance but then I suppose he and Dobbo have been persuaded. I see a domestic parallel. Mrs micra often accuses me of interfering when I try to help but I must admit that I can see how my slow and clumsy efforts could be irritating!
I don't imagine for a second that this new role has been created against the wishes of Gareth Ainsworth.
I'd have thought he welcomes it, and may well have requested it
This role must have been a request from Ainsworth and part of the commitments Couhig said he made to the manager in recent meetings. Adding this role over Ainsworth's head brings a big problem so I don't see why that is even an option.
I find your argument very persuasive @Right_in_the_Middle.
My interest now turns to the matter of how the success of the new arrangements will be quantified. Some new signings will instantly impress, some will take time to acclimatise and some will disappoint. ‘Twas ever thus. But, overall, comparing the success of the scheme with that of the more traditional approach will not be easy.
It's good to see the club being ambitious but haven't we turned up to the moneyball party at around 4am?
I'm trying to remember a signing you admitted was a poor one. You're a kindly chap and that's to your general credit of course.
But when you thought Phillips and Pattison had potential, when most thought they were well off the pace even in league one, I did wonder.
I deliberately used ‘disappoint’ @Malone because, off the top of my head, I can’t think of any recent signings who have been poor. Some of our best and most respected signings have had poor games - eg Jason McCarthy when asked to perform at left back and ? centre back - and, to be perfectly honest, I have been disappointed with Daryl Horgan. He promises so much and is clearly quick and skilful but with very little ‘end product’ - ie goals and assists.
So far as Phillips is concerned, I was as surprised as anyone that he’d (in effect) been given another chance. Well, of course, in the event, he didn’t get that chance. So, I’d have to call that a poor signing.
I see Pattison in a very different light. Very little evidence to go on but GA and Dobbo clearly had great belief in him and, as I’ve said elsewhere, I thought he performed very well against an admittedly below par Bournemouth and I hoped at the time that he would get more game time. I’m sure he will make a name for himself at Harrogate but I’m not prepared to say what kind of name, of course!
Sober, well rested and ready to learn from the mistakes of others?
That’s exactly how I turn up at parties.
Brentford the ultimate example of the the success this kind of approach can bring. If we can replicate even a smidgen of the success they've had, we'll be laughing.
If this is really objective rather than subjective analysis of player performance and given that every analyst is analysing same data, doesn’t that mean that every club will conclude that the same player is the best one?
Well, one of the key purposes of this approach is to identify and recruit the players best suited to your individual system, philosophy etc. - and that will lead different clubs to look at different players in different leagues in the first place. No doubt there is some overlap, with clubs identifying the same player/s, but there's always going to be an element of subjectivity - not least because the data will be interpreted in different ways, and no two analysts will come to exactly the same conclusion based on the combination of that and the 'eye test'.
It's also about finding the best value, which is obviously going to differ quite significantly from club to club.
It's hardly anything groundbreaking, all teams are already doing this and so are we with Josh Hart. This is just expanding the team and adding more people to the staff as would be expected for an upwardly mobile, Championship aiming club.
It's not groundbreaking, but it's certainly not all clubs who are doing it - not in League One anyway. This is a big step in the right direction for us, even if I'm sure it's been planned for quite a while.
Certainly a great step, as it wasn't long ago we could barely afford more than about 16 players who would realistically play.
We'll have 11 first team staff once the new person is appointed. I don't how high that is for League One, but it might be uncharted territory for us?
Just had a look at the staff list on the club site and I wasn't aware we employed a GPS Analyst. We'll have a sleep coach before you know it! (Yes, that is a real thing; Brentford have one.)
Liverpool once employed a throw ins coach, perhaps we could hire Beany to do the job!
I guess it’s a big step forward if you believe in this stuff. For those less convinced it seems like money spent that could have been used to hire another promising young player.
I suppose it depends on whether this is GA asking for this or whether it’s the owners imposing something he is unconvinced by. I’d hate for GA to want to sign a player but getting overruled by a computer saying no.
Part of my skepticism I suspect is driven by not really understanding what it is. Could you briefly summarise. GA has heard on the grapevine that promising young winger Gaz Room is coming available. He has asked you the analyst to have a look. What happens next?
I think they still do - it's all about gaining that competitive edge anywhere you can.
Hope this doesn’t sound condescending but I have enjoyed reading your flurry of recent posts, you obviously know your football.
Haha, I'm glad you think that - I'm not always entirely sure myself! ?
What League 1 clubs don't have an analytics 'department'
Dev, who do you think is telling Ainsworth that Gaz Room is available? Most high performers in the EFL are well known, the value is in the PL U23 leagues where games are harder to attend in person. Thats when scouting programs like wyscout and a specialist to watch the clips and digest the data prove their worth.