This might sound like an odd thing to say, but I won't be gutted if we don't go up. Sure, it would be brilliant to up, but I don't think it's the be all and end all. We've had a great season and whatever happens on Saturday I'll remember that and be grateful we aren't where we were last season!
2nd that @Tom - Amazing season to be remembered regardless of promotion. The final at Wembley will be a great day win or lose. Obviously winning would top it all of and is no doubt deserved by the club for the phenomenal effort this year all round. But for me personally there won't be a complete feeling of devastation if things do not go our way. Anyway COYB!!!!
Saturday isn't about a nice day out at Wembley, it's about being promoted. It's about playing better sides next year, bigger crowds and more revenue for the club. I'm still gutted we missed out on an automatic place.
But will we get bigger crowd? I don't think that people who won't come to see a team winning in L2 will suddenly turn up to see them lose in L1. (apart from a few more away fans) Don't get me wrong, I'd love us to go us. But the end of last season was much more important and I think it's important to remember that
Agree with @a40 and @eric_plant - that old 'cracking day out regardless of the result' stuff is nonsense. It's the depression you feel when losing crunch matches that makes winning them feel so good.
If you don't really want to go up, haven't you really just admitted that everything you've been watching this season is pointless?
Always hated the likes of Hansen and Lawrenson patronising promoted clubs fans on MOTD. 'They've been to some great places, seen world class players etc.etc'. All while getting battered of course. Only someone who has never paid to support a team would talk like that.
The play-off final route to a higher division is probably the best route for higher crowds in the higher division - If just 10% of the additional crowd at Wembley are enthused by a joyous win and come along next season it would make a noticeable difference.
I understand both sides to this debate. But no one is actually saying they wouldn't like to win on Saturday are they? I'll be gutted on Saturday if we don't win. But on Sunday I'd be able to console myself that this has been a truly amazing season whether we've won or lost the last game of it.
It will be heartbreaking if we lose Saturday and it won't have been a great day out. But. When I look back it will be one of my proudest seasons watching the blues, partly because of the low expectations at the start I think. Defeat won't change that so I sort of see where Tom's coming from. But I'll still be pissed and the cat best hide when I get back...
Im not saying I wont be gutted if we lose, I'll probably be way more depressed than I am anticipating now, but being only 19 I wasn't even born in 91 & 94 so getting to see my club play at Wembley is something i've been waiting for since I was little. So yes, if we lose, it will still be a great experience? I don't think anyone can deny that. And yes I want nothing more than a win on Saturday and to get promoted. I can't wait to see the light and blue colours swarm the east end. But my point was more geared towards that it's been an incredible season to be remembered either way.
P.s in regards to league 1 attendance last time we were in league 1 it was about 4,800 I believe, much more than this year. Although you have to take more away fans into account it wouldn't make that much of a difference.
@railwaysteve said:
The play-off final route to a higher division is probably the best route for higher crowds in the higher division
A little curious to see if this was true (not doubting you @railwaysteve, just a bit OCD), I made a Google Spreadsheet mapping League 2 promotion positions to attendance figures and it's quite eye opening:
Average attendance change percentage for the promoted clubs between 09/10 and 13/14 seasons come out at:
There's bound to be some other factors skewing those results such as distance to away games, ticket promotions etc. but indeed, the playoffs route has consistently provided the biggest change in crowd size.
Funny too how winning the division seems to have a negative effect after promotion. While hoping for a 27.87% rise in attendance figures if we get promoted is pure fantasy, it does seem hopeful that it could provide a significant boost.
It is a measure of how cynical many football fans have become that when talk of promotion comes around, there are those who wheel out their abacus and tell us that from a financial point of view, it's better to not be promoted. I wonder if these people buy a football shirt with the strikers name on the back or the head of marketing? Probably they wait a few years and pick it up from eBay half price.
In any case, there is a misunderstanding of the economics of football in the crowd argument. As has been observed over the last couple of years as a Trust, the gate receipts alone do not cover the costs, player sales do. But a 4th tier club rarely gets a large windfall from player sales, again we have first hand experience.
So if we are to believe the line saying that promotion will not lead to higher gate receipts, what will it do for us? Well, it will allow us to attract a better class of freebie into the club, all those players cast off by the acadamies year-on-year, we get a lot further up the queue and we have seen that Ainsworth and his team have caught a good 'un or two in the past. Then, when it comes to the ritual January fleecing, rather than Barnsley with their 100K, perhaps it will be Leeds with 500K or Charlton with 750K?
Finally, offer Ingram & Pierre football at a higher level and perhaps they will be here longer. Perhaps Mawson might return in the same way that Pierre himself did over the summer. Perhaps Fred will do an Anton as well?
To my mind, there is no doubt at all that this Saturday is going to be massively important in the future development of the football club. COME ON YOU BLUES!
primarily football is a sport and sport is about trying to win. So on Saturday I will be cheering like a demented loon hoping to see the team win. I rather agree that if you let financial calculations influence that, then reallly what is the point.
After the game, I suspect I will reflect that from a development/financial point of view, win or lose probably doesnt matter much. Unlike last season, the last game this season is unlikely to decide whether the club exists or not into the future.
Next years Lg2 is predominently southern, Lg 1 predominatly northern. Lg1 doesnt contain any realy big clubs (the Man C, leeds, Birminghams) that we have seen in the past. Not sure there would be much difference in away gates between say Rochdale or say hartlepool in lg1 or Lg2. Home attendance, probably not a lot of difference either,
between a team possibly struggling in Lg1 against a team doing OK in Lg2.
who knows what next season will bring. We may struggle in Lg1, killing off any new interest from supporters newly enthused by Wembley or we may do alright. We may do well in Lg2 storming to promotion and keeping the buzz going from those enthused by Wembley or we may return in Lg2 to the equilibrium position in the bottom half suggested by our likely budget comopared to others. Who knows which division would be better in retaining any new supporters post Wembley.
Player costs are likely to be higher in Lg1 as we try to compete but nonetheless we are likely to be at the bottom end of budgets. Will we attract better players, maybe. Will we get better prices for any we sell, well again that depends on how the team and those individual players perform.
If we get promotion this year, we might get relegated next year. If we dont, we might get promoted nex year. Either way finacially it is unlikely to me to make a huge long term difference.
But on a sporting basis, win or lose we will remember the day regardless, just as we remember Kidderminster and Runcorn and Preston at Wembley plus other great days like Villa Park and Chelsea and Torquay last season. Enjoy the day, be proud of what the team has achieved this season and worry about the financials, good or bad only a couple of days after the game
Thursday night against Plymouth was genuinely one of the greatest ever nights at Adams Park. The 'only' thing that gives that any meaning whatsoever is that we are now absolutely desperate to cap it all off by winning promotion on saturday.
If you're not that bothered about whether we win or lose on saturday then that Plymouth game is as meaningless as a pre-season friendly against Chalfont St Peter
I genuinely can't understand how anyone would not understand that
Absolutely eric. If we lose on Saturday I'll be absolutely heartbroken. Sure, we'll be in a far better place than 12 months ago, and have just had one of the most enjoyable seasons I can ever remember, but should we fall at the final hurdle, it'll take me longer than the summer break to get over it. Of course that all sounds completely out of proportion to the significance of a football match, but that's what makes being a supporter the experience it is.
@ eric_plant: I recall previously you have said you were 'gutted' we didn't beat Liverpool, and by extension you presumably would have been gutted that we didn't go on and lift the FA Cup. And personally I don't think I'd ever go into a game of any significance not caring about the result. But there is being disappointed and there is also taking pride in what has been achieved, and many are able to embrace both at the right time. Did our failure to beat Liverpool render beating Wimbledon and Leicester meaningless or empty? I genuinely think not.
@Baldric: "Did our failure to beat Liverpool render beating Wimbledon and Leicester meaningless or empty?"........no, of course not, precisely because we really really wanted to beat Liverpool and were gutted when we lost.
Why was Filbert St so special? Because we'd reached the FA Cup semi final. Why is an FA Cup semi final so amazing? Because you're one game away from the FA Cup final.
That is not to say that you couldn't take pride in our achievements that year even though we lost, of course we could. But I feel it would have been a bit of an insult to those players actually had none of us been bothered about the result beforehand
Some people do take these things differently. Only the most optimistic believed we would beat Liverpool, so I suspect rather than not being bothered, it was more a case of expectations already being exceeded. Saturday matters very much and will matter more for those who have experienced the ups and downs, than those turning up on the day.
I think you are misunderstanding the point Tom's trying to make Eric. Maybe he should have said that "it has been a cracking season whether we win or not" and left it at that. I doubt he will be any less disappointed than you if we lose and I'm sure he wants to win just as much. I am really looking forward to this one and flying over from France with the wife & kids to watch it. COYB!!!!!!
@blue_frog I'm not trying to say I'm a better fan than anyone else, sorry if it's come across like that. He did say "I won't be gutted if we don't go up". I will be. Everyone's different I suppose
I think the key financial difference between being in Leagues 1 & 2 is that you can't be relegated to the Conference (or National League) from League 1.
I do hope we win on Saturday. It will be the culmination of a bright season. But even if we don't, there is a lot of hope for the future. We really couldn't say that last season. It is to Gareth's hard work and leadership that he has turned things round so quickly since being manager. I hope the club, board and fans will give him the support and resources for him to continue the revival.
Comments
This might sound like an odd thing to say, but I won't be gutted if we don't go up. Sure, it would be brilliant to up, but I don't think it's the be all and end all. We've had a great season and whatever happens on Saturday I'll remember that and be grateful we aren't where we were last season!
2nd that @Tom - Amazing season to be remembered regardless of promotion. The final at Wembley will be a great day win or lose. Obviously winning would top it all of and is no doubt deserved by the club for the phenomenal effort this year all round. But for me personally there won't be a complete feeling of devastation if things do not go our way. Anyway COYB!!!!
This is nonsense surely? I'll be gutted if we lose
Saturday isn't about a nice day out at Wembley, it's about being promoted. It's about playing better sides next year, bigger crowds and more revenue for the club. I'm still gutted we missed out on an automatic place.
I'd be gutted if we have to play Bristol Rovers again next season.
But will we get bigger crowd? I don't think that people who won't come to see a team winning in L2 will suddenly turn up to see them lose in L1. (apart from a few more away fans) Don't get me wrong, I'd love us to go us. But the end of last season was much more important and I think it's important to remember that
Surely we'd all prefer playing away at and hosting the likes of Sheffield Utd, Millwall, Peterborough, Coventry and Col U again for a change?
Agree with @a40 and @eric_plant - that old 'cracking day out regardless of the result' stuff is nonsense. It's the depression you feel when losing crunch matches that makes winning them feel so good.
If you don't really want to go up, haven't you really just admitted that everything you've been watching this season is pointless?
Always hated the likes of Hansen and Lawrenson patronising promoted clubs fans on MOTD. 'They've been to some great places, seen world class players etc.etc'. All while getting battered of course. Only someone who has never paid to support a team would talk like that.
The play-off final route to a higher division is probably the best route for higher crowds in the higher division - If just 10% of the additional crowd at Wembley are enthused by a joyous win and come along next season it would make a noticeable difference.
And also pay for extra players according to the chairman in the BFP!
I understand both sides to this debate. But no one is actually saying they wouldn't like to win on Saturday are they? I'll be gutted on Saturday if we don't win. But on Sunday I'd be able to console myself that this has been a truly amazing season whether we've won or lost the last game of it.
It will be heartbreaking if we lose Saturday and it won't have been a great day out. But. When I look back it will be one of my proudest seasons watching the blues, partly because of the low expectations at the start I think. Defeat won't change that so I sort of see where Tom's coming from. But I'll still be pissed and the cat best hide when I get back...
Im not saying I wont be gutted if we lose, I'll probably be way more depressed than I am anticipating now, but being only 19 I wasn't even born in 91 & 94 so getting to see my club play at Wembley is something i've been waiting for since I was little. So yes, if we lose, it will still be a great experience? I don't think anyone can deny that. And yes I want nothing more than a win on Saturday and to get promoted. I can't wait to see the light and blue colours swarm the east end. But my point was more geared towards that it's been an incredible season to be remembered either way.
P.s in regards to league 1 attendance last time we were in league 1 it was about 4,800 I believe, much more than this year. Although you have to take more away fans into account it wouldn't make that much of a difference.
As Martin O'Neill Said in 94, "I wish the people of High Wycombe would start taking this game seriously."
A little curious to see if this was true (not doubting you @railwaysteve, just a bit OCD), I made a Google Spreadsheet mapping League 2 promotion positions to attendance figures and it's quite eye opening:
Average attendance change percentage for the promoted clubs between 09/10 and 13/14 seasons come out at:
Avg % Change
Winners: -5.86%
Second: 8.63%
Third: 10.24%
Playoffs: 27.87%
There's bound to be some other factors skewing those results such as distance to away games, ticket promotions etc. but indeed, the playoffs route has consistently provided the biggest change in crowd size.
Funny too how winning the division seems to have a negative effect after promotion. While hoping for a 27.87% rise in attendance figures if we get promoted is pure fantasy, it does seem hopeful that it could provide a significant boost.
It is a measure of how cynical many football fans have become that when talk of promotion comes around, there are those who wheel out their abacus and tell us that from a financial point of view, it's better to not be promoted. I wonder if these people buy a football shirt with the strikers name on the back or the head of marketing? Probably they wait a few years and pick it up from eBay half price.
In any case, there is a misunderstanding of the economics of football in the crowd argument. As has been observed over the last couple of years as a Trust, the gate receipts alone do not cover the costs, player sales do. But a 4th tier club rarely gets a large windfall from player sales, again we have first hand experience.
So if we are to believe the line saying that promotion will not lead to higher gate receipts, what will it do for us? Well, it will allow us to attract a better class of freebie into the club, all those players cast off by the acadamies year-on-year, we get a lot further up the queue and we have seen that Ainsworth and his team have caught a good 'un or two in the past. Then, when it comes to the ritual January fleecing, rather than Barnsley with their 100K, perhaps it will be Leeds with 500K or Charlton with 750K?
Finally, offer Ingram & Pierre football at a higher level and perhaps they will be here longer. Perhaps Mawson might return in the same way that Pierre himself did over the summer. Perhaps Fred will do an Anton as well?
To my mind, there is no doubt at all that this Saturday is going to be massively important in the future development of the football club. COME ON YOU BLUES!
Part agree part disagree.
primarily football is a sport and sport is about trying to win. So on Saturday I will be cheering like a demented loon hoping to see the team win. I rather agree that if you let financial calculations influence that, then reallly what is the point.
After the game, I suspect I will reflect that from a development/financial point of view, win or lose probably doesnt matter much. Unlike last season, the last game this season is unlikely to decide whether the club exists or not into the future.
Next years Lg2 is predominently southern, Lg 1 predominatly northern. Lg1 doesnt contain any realy big clubs (the Man C, leeds, Birminghams) that we have seen in the past. Not sure there would be much difference in away gates between say Rochdale or say hartlepool in lg1 or Lg2. Home attendance, probably not a lot of difference either,
between a team possibly struggling in Lg1 against a team doing OK in Lg2.
who knows what next season will bring. We may struggle in Lg1, killing off any new interest from supporters newly enthused by Wembley or we may do alright. We may do well in Lg2 storming to promotion and keeping the buzz going from those enthused by Wembley or we may return in Lg2 to the equilibrium position in the bottom half suggested by our likely budget comopared to others. Who knows which division would be better in retaining any new supporters post Wembley.
Player costs are likely to be higher in Lg1 as we try to compete but nonetheless we are likely to be at the bottom end of budgets. Will we attract better players, maybe. Will we get better prices for any we sell, well again that depends on how the team and those individual players perform.
If we get promotion this year, we might get relegated next year. If we dont, we might get promoted nex year. Either way finacially it is unlikely to me to make a huge long term difference.
But on a sporting basis, win or lose we will remember the day regardless, just as we remember Kidderminster and Runcorn and Preston at Wembley plus other great days like Villa Park and Chelsea and Torquay last season. Enjoy the day, be proud of what the team has achieved this season and worry about the financials, good or bad only a couple of days after the game
Thursday night against Plymouth was genuinely one of the greatest ever nights at Adams Park. The 'only' thing that gives that any meaning whatsoever is that we are now absolutely desperate to cap it all off by winning promotion on saturday.
If you're not that bothered about whether we win or lose on saturday then that Plymouth game is as meaningless as a pre-season friendly against Chalfont St Peter
I genuinely can't understand how anyone would not understand that
Absolutely eric. If we lose on Saturday I'll be absolutely heartbroken. Sure, we'll be in a far better place than 12 months ago, and have just had one of the most enjoyable seasons I can ever remember, but should we fall at the final hurdle, it'll take me longer than the summer break to get over it. Of course that all sounds completely out of proportion to the significance of a football match, but that's what makes being a supporter the experience it is.
No one is saying that people aren't bothered...
@ eric_plant: I recall previously you have said you were 'gutted' we didn't beat Liverpool, and by extension you presumably would have been gutted that we didn't go on and lift the FA Cup. And personally I don't think I'd ever go into a game of any significance not caring about the result. But there is being disappointed and there is also taking pride in what has been achieved, and many are able to embrace both at the right time. Did our failure to beat Liverpool render beating Wimbledon and Leicester meaningless or empty? I genuinely think not.
What @Baldric said.
@Baldric: "Did our failure to beat Liverpool render beating Wimbledon and Leicester meaningless or empty?"........no, of course not, precisely because we really really wanted to beat Liverpool and were gutted when we lost.
Why was Filbert St so special? Because we'd reached the FA Cup semi final. Why is an FA Cup semi final so amazing? Because you're one game away from the FA Cup final.
That is not to say that you couldn't take pride in our achievements that year even though we lost, of course we could. But I feel it would have been a bit of an insult to those players actually had none of us been bothered about the result beforehand
Some people do take these things differently. Only the most optimistic believed we would beat Liverpool, so I suspect rather than not being bothered, it was more a case of expectations already being exceeded. Saturday matters very much and will matter more for those who have experienced the ups and downs, than those turning up on the day.
I think you are misunderstanding the point Tom's trying to make Eric. Maybe he should have said that "it has been a cracking season whether we win or not" and left it at that. I doubt he will be any less disappointed than you if we lose and I'm sure he wants to win just as much. I am really looking forward to this one and flying over from France with the wife & kids to watch it. COYB!!!!!!
@blue_frog I'm not trying to say I'm a better fan than anyone else, sorry if it's come across like that. He did say "I won't be gutted if we don't go up". I will be. Everyone's different I suppose
Higher one goes in the FA league pyramid, the quality improves and can attract better loaness, freebies or outcasts. I guess sponsorship too?
Better sponsorship than beechdean iceCream?
I think the key financial difference between being in Leagues 1 & 2 is that you can't be relegated to the Conference (or National League) from League 1.
I do hope we win on Saturday. It will be the culmination of a bright season. But even if we don't, there is a lot of hope for the future. We really couldn't say that last season. It is to Gareth's hard work and leadership that he has turned things round so quickly since being manager. I hope the club, board and fans will give him the support and resources for him to continue the revival.