@Wendoverman said:
Shall we rejoice on having two excellent players in a positon or shall we slag one off in order to question the manager's ability? Its a conundrum...
I always feel a little sheepish about Allsop, because he is just not a fan favourite no matter what he does. But this is really a case of how good Stockdale is, rather than how bad Rocky is. Rocky came second in a 'player of the season so far' poll a while back!
@Shev said:
I always feel a little sheepish about Allsop, because he is just not a fan favourite no matter what he does. But this is really a case of how good Stockdale is, rather than how bad Rocky is. Rocky came second in a 'player of the season so far' poll a while back!
It seemed an absolute no brainer that Stockdale would be first choice when he was signed.
It's to Rocky's credit that he kept him out for so long.
Very poor timing to lose his spot though, being out of contract in the summer. Stockdale too, being out of contract.
Could be a very difficult decision regarding the two of them, can we keep both? A bit of a luxury probably. Especially with a gaggle of younger keepers floating around underneath.
Allsop was having a great season. Even in the 7-0 drubbing v Brentford he was a stand out performer. I don’t know if any of the young keepers have a chance of being a division 1 keeper next year or soon so difficult to know if we need two top class (and probably higher earning) ‘keepers come August 7th.
Blackman's progress seems to have stalled somewhat, admittedly perhaps hampered by injuries. Think I would actually prefer us to extend Stockdale's contract, as apart from being a quality keeper, he may also help to bring on our two younger players.
Jamal Blackman was a very good ‘keeper for us four years ago, commanding the box as you would expect him to at 6’6”, and he played in 42 games (?everpresent) that season but he has only managed 50 or so appearances in the meantime. I used to worry about the effect on him psychologically of moving from a reported £6,000 a week whilst at Chelsea to, presumably, a considerably more modest income when he eventually left the club. I think.as you say @mooneyman, he has had injury problems including, from unreliable memory, a broken leg at Sheffield United.
@mooneyman said:
Blackman's progress seems to have stalled somewhat, admittedly perhaps hampered by injuries. Think I would actually prefer us to extend Stockdale's contract, as apart from being a quality keeper, he may also help to bring on our two younger players.
Totally agree. He should have played more games this season. Not trying to put Allsop down because he has done well but Stockdale has got the presence and defenders don't seem seem so jittery in front of him.
@micra said:
Jamal Blackman was a very good ‘keeper for us four years ago, commanding the box as you would expect him to at 6’6”, and he played in 42 games (?everpresent) that season but he has only managed 50 or so appearances in the meantime. I used to worry about the effect on him psychologically of moving from a reported £6,000 a week whilst at Chelsea to, presumably, a considerably more modest income when he eventually left the club. I think.as you say @mooneyman, he has had injury problems including, from unreliable memory, a broken leg at Sheffield United.
@micra said:
About 60 matches since leaving us (overlooked Bristol Rovers, easily done) and, to my amazement, still on Chelsea’s books!
Isn’t it incredible and a major frustration to me. The system is so heavily leaned towards the bigger clubs who vaunt to few players who succeed rather than the vast number that don’t. Chelsea milk money from the leagues below loaning players out and selling the odd one on. In the meantime many stagnate and clubs like Wycombe can’t afford to free them or set up a system of their own.
Who know’s whether Blackman would succeed outside of the Chelsea system. He certainly had the talent to when he was with us. I do wonder if having a wage vastly above his actual standing is blunting his hunger and changing his view on a career path.
It has to be Stockdale, if he will stay on reasonable wages. But again, that is not to say Allsop has done badly, but to say Stockdale has been a 10 where Allsop was a 9.
@micra said:
Jamal Blackman was a very good ‘keeper for us four years ago, commanding the box as you would expect him to at 6’6”, and he played in 42 games (?everpresent) that season but he has only managed 50 or so appearances in the meantime. I used to worry about the effect on him psychologically of moving from a reported £6,000 a week whilst at Chelsea to, presumably, a considerably more modest income when he eventually left the club. I think.as you say @mooneyman, he has had injury problems including, from unreliable memory, a broken leg at Sheffield United.
6k? Think it was double that.
Chelsea were paying him £13,000 a week when he was on loan to us.
@micra said:
Jamal Blackman was a very good ‘keeper for us four years ago, commanding the box as you would expect him to at 6’6”, and he played in 42 games (?everpresent) that season but he has only managed 50 or so appearances in the meantime. I used to worry about the effect on him psychologically of moving from a reported £6,000 a week whilst at Chelsea to, presumably, a considerably more modest income when he eventually left the club. I think.as you say @mooneyman, he has had injury problems including, from unreliable memory, a broken leg at Sheffield United.
6k? Think it was double that.
Chelsea were paying him £13,000 a week when he was on loan to us.
That's deffo more like the figure that was out there.
@eric_plant said:
6 clean sheets in 11 games since Stockdale came into the side.
3 in 29 before then
And in the 26 non clean sheets what ones would you put down to Allsop conceding what he should have easily saved?
It’s not just a keeper that keeps clean sheets. It’s the team just as a striker cannot score if the chances are not created by the team.
With respect, I don't think it's as straightforward as that (although I agree with the point about the collective responsibility to defend). Partly, because to my eye, Stockdale exerts a far more calming influence over the defensive organisation of the side (intangible, but highlights the point you raise and therefore relevant). But mostly because Stockdale makes saves that Allsop just won't get near. The point isn't that Allsop has conceded a load of howlers that he should have saved easily, the point is surely that Stockdale has a better chance of stopping those shots that look unstoppable with Allsop in goal. And one can hold this view without denigrating Allsop - he might have done as well as he possibly could have done this season, and we might still have kept more clean sheets with Stockdale in for longer. To stick with your analogy of the strikers, think of the goals Uche scored against Brentford or Middlesborough. Of course, teams that create more for their strikers will usually allow them to score more goals, but there is also an element of individual talent at play too. Again, the point isn't that all our strikers except Uche are rubbish - it's that some individuals are capable of things that others aren't, which is how I see Stockdale and Allsop.
That's obviously before we get to the actions that indirectly affect that chances of concession, for which see yesterday. Five or six times, Stockdale came and claimed a cross, or punched (or that wonderful moment in the first half when he communicated to Knight to duck underneath a through-ball). These are moments which lessen pressure, or even the opportunity to conceded a shot that either keeper might have no chance with, but which might only occur as a result of inaction in the first place.
I think perhaps I agree with you that there is more than one metric by which to measure ability and influence, but differ on what those metrics are.
Even when we’re in time wasting mode, Stockdale releases the ball much quicker than Rocky ever did. That’s a strange one as I always assumed Rocky’s dawdling was at the request of the management.
Stockdale still comes and misses crosses by a mile at times but there’s definitely a much calmer air in the defence and that has to be down to him.
@OxfordBlue said:
Why wouldn't we retain both keepers?
Money presumably (and next season possibly limited squad places). if in Lg1, surely unlikely we would have more than one senior and one of the two young GKs (preferably one of the right age and experience such that a loanee can be brought in if senior GK gets injured/banned).
Even at 36 Stocky moves his feet far quicker than Allsop, and is able to regain position or change direction, where as Ryan at times looks like he is wearing concrete boots.
I think we will be having this conversation for years to come, If only Ainsworth would have selected Stocky as the number 1 from the start, and why he continued to select Bloomfield in preference to others, would we have stayed up ??
To be fair to Ainsworth, at the start of the season Stockdale barely had any game-time and made an absolute howler in pre-season that was so bad it went viral. Allsop on the other hand had performed admirably in the play-offs.
Comments
Where ? I was praising Stockdale
Stockdale's shirt now, unless he hits some bad form.
I always feel a little sheepish about Allsop, because he is just not a fan favourite no matter what he does. But this is really a case of how good Stockdale is, rather than how bad Rocky is. Rocky came second in a 'player of the season so far' poll a while back!
Which suggests he is a fan favourite, no?
It seemed an absolute no brainer that Stockdale would be first choice when he was signed.
It's to Rocky's credit that he kept him out for so long.
Very poor timing to lose his spot though, being out of contract in the summer. Stockdale too, being out of contract.
Could be a very difficult decision regarding the two of them, can we keep both? A bit of a luxury probably. Especially with a gaggle of younger keepers floating around underneath.
Allsop was having a great season. Even in the 7-0 drubbing v Brentford he was a stand out performer. I don’t know if any of the young keepers have a chance of being a division 1 keeper next year or soon so difficult to know if we need two top class (and probably higher earning) ‘keepers come August 7th.
We will probably keep one of our current two keepers plus some youngsters in the summer and let one go?
Jamal Blackman is out of contract in June and is currently warming the bench at our hosts today, having only played once since January.
Certainly a consideration over the summer for him and us.
Blackman's progress seems to have stalled somewhat, admittedly perhaps hampered by injuries. Think I would actually prefer us to extend Stockdale's contract, as apart from being a quality keeper, he may also help to bring on our two younger players.
Jamal Blackman was a very good ‘keeper for us four years ago, commanding the box as you would expect him to at 6’6”, and he played in 42 games (?everpresent) that season but he has only managed 50 or so appearances in the meantime. I used to worry about the effect on him psychologically of moving from a reported £6,000 a week whilst at Chelsea to, presumably, a considerably more modest income when he eventually left the club. I think.as you say @mooneyman, he has had injury problems including, from unreliable memory, a broken leg at Sheffield United.
He’d be a great signing, but we already have two keepers who are more than good enough.
About 60 matches since leaving us (overlooked Bristol Rovers, easily done) and, to my amazement, still on Chelsea’s books!
Totally agree. He should have played more games this season. Not trying to put Allsop down because he has done well but Stockdale has got the presence and defenders don't seem seem so jittery in front of him.
6k? Think it was double that.
Isn’t it incredible and a major frustration to me. The system is so heavily leaned towards the bigger clubs who vaunt to few players who succeed rather than the vast number that don’t. Chelsea milk money from the leagues below loaning players out and selling the odd one on. In the meantime many stagnate and clubs like Wycombe can’t afford to free them or set up a system of their own.
Who know’s whether Blackman would succeed outside of the Chelsea system. He certainly had the talent to when he was with us. I do wonder if having a wage vastly above his actual standing is blunting his hunger and changing his view on a career path.
It has to be Stockdale, if he will stay on reasonable wages. But again, that is not to say Allsop has done badly, but to say Stockdale has been a 10 where Allsop was a 9.
Chelsea were paying him £13,000 a week when he was on loan to us.
That's deffo more like the figure that was out there.
6 clean sheets in 11 games since Stockdale came into the side.
3 in 29 before then.
Apologies in advance to Wendoverman and drcongo if this counts as "abuse"
And in the 26 non clean sheets what ones would you put down to Allsop conceding what he should have easily saved?
It’s not just a keeper that keeps clean sheets. It’s the team just as a striker cannot score if the chances are not created by the team.
Stockdale has been the ‘luckier’ keeper...stick with him
With respect, I don't think it's as straightforward as that (although I agree with the point about the collective responsibility to defend). Partly, because to my eye, Stockdale exerts a far more calming influence over the defensive organisation of the side (intangible, but highlights the point you raise and therefore relevant). But mostly because Stockdale makes saves that Allsop just won't get near. The point isn't that Allsop has conceded a load of howlers that he should have saved easily, the point is surely that Stockdale has a better chance of stopping those shots that look unstoppable with Allsop in goal. And one can hold this view without denigrating Allsop - he might have done as well as he possibly could have done this season, and we might still have kept more clean sheets with Stockdale in for longer. To stick with your analogy of the strikers, think of the goals Uche scored against Brentford or Middlesborough. Of course, teams that create more for their strikers will usually allow them to score more goals, but there is also an element of individual talent at play too. Again, the point isn't that all our strikers except Uche are rubbish - it's that some individuals are capable of things that others aren't, which is how I see Stockdale and Allsop.
That's obviously before we get to the actions that indirectly affect that chances of concession, for which see yesterday. Five or six times, Stockdale came and claimed a cross, or punched (or that wonderful moment in the first half when he communicated to Knight to duck underneath a through-ball). These are moments which lessen pressure, or even the opportunity to conceded a shot that either keeper might have no chance with, but which might only occur as a result of inaction in the first place.
I think perhaps I agree with you that there is more than one metric by which to measure ability and influence, but differ on what those metrics are.
Why wouldn't we retain both keepers?
Even when we’re in time wasting mode, Stockdale releases the ball much quicker than Rocky ever did. That’s a strange one as I always assumed Rocky’s dawdling was at the request of the management.
Stockdale still comes and misses crosses by a mile at times but there’s definitely a much calmer air in the defence and that has to be down to him.
Money presumably (and next season possibly limited squad places). if in Lg1, surely unlikely we would have more than one senior and one of the two young GKs (preferably one of the right age and experience such that a loanee can be brought in if senior GK gets injured/banned).
Even at 36 Stocky moves his feet far quicker than Allsop, and is able to regain position or change direction, where as Ryan at times looks like he is wearing concrete boots.
I think we will be having this conversation for years to come, If only Ainsworth would have selected Stocky as the number 1 from the start, and why he continued to select Bloomfield in preference to others, would we have stayed up ??
To be fair to Ainsworth, at the start of the season Stockdale barely had any game-time and made an absolute howler in pre-season that was so bad it went viral. Allsop on the other hand had performed admirably in the play-offs.
Indeed. Don’t forget Stockdale’s shaky performances last season coupled with the pre-season howler.
It would have been an astonishing decision to start him over Allsop.
I do feel more comfortable with Stockdale in goal, mainly due to his body language and him seemingly actually really enjoying playing.
All the above said, I like Allsop as a keeper and he’s often played outstandingly this season.
I think the difference is that Stockdale’s outstanding is a much higher bar than Allsop’s outstanding.