@aloysius said:
Matt Spring, Stephen McGinn, Sam Saunders, Nick Freeman.
Throughout his time managing us Gareth has a habit of leaving ball-playing central midfielders who can pick a pass but don't necessarily have the tenacity and physicality of a Bloomfield/Scowen/O'Nien/Pattison either to wither on the bench or out of the squad altogether, until they give up and go elsewhere.
In my opinion it's one of the most frustrating things about Gareth's time here. I would certainly think twice if I were a player in that mould with an offer to sign for the club.
I think you're being purposely mischievous with your list of players there.
Spring by all accounts had an appalling attitude and Saunders was first name on the team sheet at his best level. By the time we got him back he was injury prone and a third of the player we previously had.
Even McGinn and Freeman are different kettles of fish as Freeman was often competing against loads of quality players and wasn't helped by our rapid progression up the leagues these last few years.
@aloysius said:
Matt Spring, Stephen McGinn, Sam Saunders, Nick Freeman.
Throughout his time managing us Gareth has a habit of leaving ball-playing central midfielders who can pick a pass but don't necessarily have the tenacity and ..........
.................one of the most frustrating things about Gareth's time here. I would certainly think twice if I were a player in that mould with an offer to sign for the club.
Completely agree. Add Bryn Morris to that.
Poss why ultimately Gaz won’t manage at a higher level (ducks in anticipation of abuse being hurled).
In for a penny.... Matt Spring was one of our most cultured midfielders in our ‘modern era’ oh and he played more Premier League games than Gaz as well?
I sense the only way a cultured ball player would be tolerated by Ainsworth, is if he had the work rate of Gape of Markus Bean !!
And if they did, they would probably be playing in the Prem
Agreed probably the most disappointing thing about Ainsworths reign.
@aloysius said:
Matt Spring, Stephen McGinn, Sam Saunders, Nick Freeman.
Bit of a reach this isn't it? McGinn was in and out of the side and his homesickness took him back to Scotland, Saunders was magnificent during his loan spell, but never really did it when he came back, and Freeman, for all his undoubted talent, was immediately superseded by Mehmeti.
Always worth remembering that not only does GA see more than we see, he also understands it better.
By who's account did Spring have an appalling attitude? He had a long professional career and I've never heard of any attitude complaints from anyone else. Besides, he was at the club at the same time as Dean Morgan who certainly did have a attitude issue, and he still got plenty of game time.
By the time he left Wycombe he was nearly 35 so hardly surprising he didn't go to greater heights once afterwards.
Not sure Freeman has some great source of untapped potential. He's 25 years old now so hardly 'young' by professional footballer standards. League 2 is more his level I think, should still have a good career in the bottom 2 EFL divisions. Could definitely see him being a useful squad player (if he is still content with such a role) if we are relegated next year otherwise probably move to Orient on a permanent deal if we stay up.
I fall on the “it’s a shame/he was underused” side of the argument whilst agreeing that he never really showed enough of his potential when he was trusted to start.
Really wish him well as some of his best moments have been some of ours but I would be surprised to see him in a Wycombe shirt again (hoping to be proved wrong).
I do wonder whether maximum squad sizes may have an impact. Freeman was sort of a Plan D player whereas (maybe) for GA we need quality cover for Plans A-C. With Mehmeti quickly making the step up for that wild card position it will probably allow reinforcements in GAs key roles.
I'm a fan of Freeman's, but some of the comments here are a bit OTT. He's played 120 games for us (Yes, many off the bench) and he's often played well and he's clearly a talented player. However he also has a tendency to drift in and out of games and has at times struggled to make an impact when starting. I don't really see this loan as a big surprise, the lad needs games and is down the pecking order here. I really hope he makes a big impact at Orient and comes back to us a better player.
Also worth noting that clearly GA will be looking to bring players in to replace Parker and Freeman. Hopefully this is a move that will work out well for Freeman, Orient and Wycombe.
@Croider said:
By who's account did Spring have an appalling attitude? He had a long professional career and I've never heard of any attitude complaints from anyone else. Besides, he was at the club at the same time as Dean Morgan who certainly did have a attitude issue, and he still got plenty of game time.
By the time he left Wycombe he was nearly 35 so hardly surprising he didn't go to greater heights once afterwards.
Not sure Freeman has some great source of untapped potential. He's 25 years old now so hardly 'young' by professional footballer standards. League 2 is more his level I think, should still have a good career in the bottom 2 EFL divisions. Could definitely see him being a useful squad player (if he is still content with such a role) if we are relegated next year otherwise probably move to Orient on a permanent deal if we stay up.
"Happy to be on the bench and not play" is what i was told from someone close to it all.
Without sounding like Richie!
It had passed me by how long Nick's been at the club. Some lovely performances, but quite a few anonymous ones too. That said, has rarely had a run of games either.
Hope it goes well at Orient for him - from what I've seen of Mehmeti, he has the skill and is possibly a bit more 'all action.
Gareth Ainsworth has, like all managers, made his mistakes with players, but they are very rare.
It’s disappointing how things can escalate on a thread like this. For a start, Nick has not been sold, he has gone out on loan. There are hundreds of players who go out on loan for a variety of reasons before returning to their parent club, usually the better for the experience. Let us hope that Nick becomes one of them.
Then there’s the theory that Gaz is not interested in creative players. If so, why did he recruit McGinn, Eze, Saunders and why has he promoted Mehmeti into the first team squad? Creative midfielders, like consistent goal scorers, are the hardest players to find and the most expensive to acquire and Gaz has always had to operate on a very modest budget.
Regarding Spring, let’s just say that modesty and a willingness to adapt to lower division football were not exactly his strongest qualities.
Love that the enigma of ‘Matt Springgate’ is getting an airing (Spring clean?) after all these years. He was a delightful player, who yes clearly rubbed Gaz up the wrong way, they were everything the other wasn’t as a player - and that isn’t castigating either approaches to the game.
At our current level, with Curtis T alongside him, that would have been a great watch (Spring Watch!). But I doubt the Gaffer will be on the lookout for such a player.
Learning to manage talent that has a different opinion to your own is, arguably, the next step in Ainsworths learning curve as a manager, and certainly one he will need to address if he is to manage a club with greater resources and aspirations than our own.
All this talk of classy looking creative midfielders has been going on for ever. We now live in an age when almost any English qualified top flight player gets a chance at the England squad but I was bought up in a time when some great players didn't get a look in.
Glenn Hoddle struggled for ages to get regular England games as he was seen as a luxury player whilst Matt Le Tissier never got the international caps he deserved and would have got now.
Before that players like Stan Bowles, Frank Worthington and Tony Currie were overlooked and regarded by some as flashy.
I remember growing up discussing the best English players never to play for England. I'm not sure that list is that long now and is certainly not as illustrious as in prior decades. I love watching a classy midfielder who plays with his head up and picks a pass. I also love a tough tackling battler who never passes it more than five yards. Managers have styles and players that fit that. We need a mobile midfield now and we don't have the budget to add more creativity without losing some mobility.
Tommy Doc was probably the last for us who had both wasn't he? Maybe Scowen?
A list of all the central midfielders Ainsworth has signed - there will probably be some who you wont remember at all:
13-14
Billy Knott
Sam Togwell
14-15
Peter Murphy
Nathan Evans
Nicky Walker
Marcus Bean
15-16
Luke O'Nien
Stephen McGinn
James Ferry
Jermaine Udumaga
16-17
Nick Freeman
Dominic Gape
Sam Saunders
17-18
Eberechi Eze
18-19
Curtis Thompson
Bryn Morris
Charlie Owens
19-20
Alex Pattison
Jacob Gardiner-Smith
Nnamdi Ofoborh
20-21
Dennis Adeniran
Anis Mehmeti
I think it's clear to see that Ainsworth, although not on a consist basis has been able to pick up good midfielders throughout his tenure as manager.
Also worth noting Nathan Evans was essentially imposed on us by our sponsors at the time, Samsung. Ainsworth had to choose a player from a team of trialists, and Samsung paid the wages.
@thedieharder said:
A list of all the central midfielders Ainsworth has signed - there will probably be some who you wont remember at all:
13-14
Billy Knott
Sam Togwell
14-15
Peter Murphy
Nathan Evans
Nicky Walker
Marcus Bean
15-16
Luke O'Nien
Stephen McGinn
James Ferry
Jermaine Udumaga
16-17
Nick Freeman
Dominic Gape
Sam Saunders
17-18
Eberechi Eze
18-19
Curtis Thompson
Bryn Morris
Charlie Owens
19-20
Alex Pattison
Jacob Gardiner-Smith
Nnamdi Ofoborh
20-21
Dennis Adeniran
Anis Mehmeti
I think it's clear to see that Ainsworth, although not on a consist basis has been able to pick up good midfielders throughout his tenure as manager.
Some interesting names in that lot. Some epic signings and a few I can't remember at all. I remember being excited about Jermaine Udumaga but he is now filed under 'where are they now'.
No surprise to say that the vast amount of successful ones have been grafters. And the ones that have been really successful have combined graft with ability to create (Gape, Thompson, O'Nien, Murphy - season one). Adeniran has graft and just needs a bit more creation, same as Ofoborh. Mehmeti has creation and just needs a little more graft and decision making and will definitely be in the positive column.
Just looked up Charlie Owens as his name meant nothing to me. 23 now - has played 19 minutes first team action - all for us. What a waste of presumably some natural talent
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub Adeniran can break defensive lines, i.e. surge past opponents with the ball, which is every bit as important as creativity. I think he's a fantastic talent and would love to see more of him alongside Thompson over the rest of the season.
@DevC said:
Just looked up Charlie Owens as his name meant nothing to me. 23 now - has played 19 minutes first team action - all for us. What a waste of presumably some natural talent
Has been out injured for around 12 months after a torn knee cartilage. Still not right after two operations. Your comment is somewhat harsh even for you Dev.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub Adeniran can break defensive lines, i.e. surge past opponents with the ball, which is every bit as important as creativity. I think he's a fantastic talent and would love to see more of him alongside Thompson over the rest of the season.
Apologies - On Wikipedia it listed him as a central midfield.
Comments
I think you're being purposely mischievous with your list of players there.
Spring by all accounts had an appalling attitude and Saunders was first name on the team sheet at his best level. By the time we got him back he was injury prone and a third of the player we previously had.
Even McGinn and Freeman are different kettles of fish as Freeman was often competing against loads of quality players and wasn't helped by our rapid progression up the leagues these last few years.
McGinn in league two I'll give you.
Completely agree. Add Bryn Morris to that.
Poss why ultimately Gaz won’t manage at a higher level (ducks in anticipation of abuse being hurled).
In for a penny.... Matt Spring was one of our most cultured midfielders in our ‘modern era’ oh and he played more Premier League games than Gaz as well?
And what did Matt Spring do when he left us @perfidious_albion. Sweet FA.
How did Eze or 15 year old Ibe fit in with this Gaz doesn't like flair midfielders theory?
I sense the only way a cultured ball player would be tolerated by Ainsworth, is if he had the work rate of Gape of Markus Bean !!
And if they did, they would probably be playing in the Prem
Agreed probably the most disappointing thing about Ainsworths reign.
Bit of a reach this isn't it? McGinn was in and out of the side and his homesickness took him back to Scotland, Saunders was magnificent during his loan spell, but never really did it when he came back, and Freeman, for all his undoubted talent, was immediately superseded by Mehmeti.
Always worth remembering that not only does GA see more than we see, he also understands it better.
By who's account did Spring have an appalling attitude? He had a long professional career and I've never heard of any attitude complaints from anyone else. Besides, he was at the club at the same time as Dean Morgan who certainly did have a attitude issue, and he still got plenty of game time.
By the time he left Wycombe he was nearly 35 so hardly surprising he didn't go to greater heights once afterwards.
Not sure Freeman has some great source of untapped potential. He's 25 years old now so hardly 'young' by professional footballer standards. League 2 is more his level I think, should still have a good career in the bottom 2 EFL divisions. Could definitely see him being a useful squad player (if he is still content with such a role) if we are relegated next year otherwise probably move to Orient on a permanent deal if we stay up.
I fall on the “it’s a shame/he was underused” side of the argument whilst agreeing that he never really showed enough of his potential when he was trusted to start.
Really wish him well as some of his best moments have been some of ours but I would be surprised to see him in a Wycombe shirt again (hoping to be proved wrong).
I do wonder whether maximum squad sizes may have an impact. Freeman was sort of a Plan D player whereas (maybe) for GA we need quality cover for Plans A-C. With Mehmeti quickly making the step up for that wild card position it will probably allow reinforcements in GAs key roles.
I'm a fan of Freeman's, but some of the comments here are a bit OTT. He's played 120 games for us (Yes, many off the bench) and he's often played well and he's clearly a talented player. However he also has a tendency to drift in and out of games and has at times struggled to make an impact when starting. I don't really see this loan as a big surprise, the lad needs games and is down the pecking order here. I really hope he makes a big impact at Orient and comes back to us a better player.
Also worth noting that clearly GA will be looking to bring players in to replace Parker and Freeman. Hopefully this is a move that will work out well for Freeman, Orient and Wycombe.
"Happy to be on the bench and not play" is what i was told from someone close to it all.
Without sounding like Richie!
It had passed me by how long Nick's been at the club. Some lovely performances, but quite a few anonymous ones too. That said, has rarely had a run of games either.
Hope it goes well at Orient for him - from what I've seen of Mehmeti, he has the skill and is possibly a bit more 'all action.
Gareth Ainsworth has, like all managers, made his mistakes with players, but they are very rare.
It’s disappointing how things can escalate on a thread like this. For a start, Nick has not been sold, he has gone out on loan. There are hundreds of players who go out on loan for a variety of reasons before returning to their parent club, usually the better for the experience. Let us hope that Nick becomes one of them.
Then there’s the theory that Gaz is not interested in creative players. If so, why did he recruit McGinn, Eze, Saunders and why has he promoted Mehmeti into the first team squad? Creative midfielders, like consistent goal scorers, are the hardest players to find and the most expensive to acquire and Gaz has always had to operate on a very modest budget.
Regarding Spring, let’s just say that modesty and a willingness to adapt to lower division football were not exactly his strongest qualities.
Has he really played 120 games for Wycombe?
126 appearances apparently. Hard to argue he's not been given chances.
I do like him a lot as a player and I really hope he's successful and comes back and pushes for a 1st team place next season.
In the Championship.
Big few months for Nick Freeman and his future career. Hope it goes well for him.
Love that the enigma of ‘Matt Springgate’ is getting an airing (Spring clean?) after all these years. He was a delightful player, who yes clearly rubbed Gaz up the wrong way, they were everything the other wasn’t as a player - and that isn’t castigating either approaches to the game.
At our current level, with Curtis T alongside him, that would have been a great watch (Spring Watch!). But I doubt the Gaffer will be on the lookout for such a player.
Learning to manage talent that has a different opinion to your own is, arguably, the next step in Ainsworths learning curve as a manager, and certainly one he will need to address if he is to manage a club with greater resources and aspirations than our own.
All this talk of classy looking creative midfielders has been going on for ever. We now live in an age when almost any English qualified top flight player gets a chance at the England squad but I was bought up in a time when some great players didn't get a look in.
Glenn Hoddle struggled for ages to get regular England games as he was seen as a luxury player whilst Matt Le Tissier never got the international caps he deserved and would have got now.
Before that players like Stan Bowles, Frank Worthington and Tony Currie were overlooked and regarded by some as flashy.
I remember growing up discussing the best English players never to play for England. I'm not sure that list is that long now and is certainly not as illustrious as in prior decades. I love watching a classy midfielder who plays with his head up and picks a pass. I also love a tough tackling battler who never passes it more than five yards. Managers have styles and players that fit that. We need a mobile midfield now and we don't have the budget to add more creativity without losing some mobility.
Tommy Doc was probably the last for us who had both wasn't he? Maybe Scowen?
A list of all the central midfielders Ainsworth has signed - there will probably be some who you wont remember at all:
13-14
Billy Knott
Sam Togwell
14-15
Peter Murphy
Nathan Evans
Nicky Walker
Marcus Bean
15-16
Luke O'Nien
Stephen McGinn
James Ferry
Jermaine Udumaga
16-17
Nick Freeman
Dominic Gape
Sam Saunders
17-18
Eberechi Eze
18-19
Curtis Thompson
Bryn Morris
Charlie Owens
19-20
Alex Pattison
Jacob Gardiner-Smith
Nnamdi Ofoborh
20-21
Dennis Adeniran
Anis Mehmeti
I think it's clear to see that Ainsworth, although not on a consist basis has been able to pick up good midfielders throughout his tenure as manager.
Very few duds in there.
Also worth noting Nathan Evans was essentially imposed on us by our sponsors at the time, Samsung. Ainsworth had to choose a player from a team of trialists, and Samsung paid the wages.
Some interesting names in that lot. Some epic signings and a few I can't remember at all. I remember being excited about Jermaine Udumaga but he is now filed under 'where are they now'.
No surprise to say that the vast amount of successful ones have been grafters. And the ones that have been really successful have combined graft with ability to create (Gape, Thompson, O'Nien, Murphy - season one). Adeniran has graft and just needs a bit more creation, same as Ofoborh. Mehmeti has creation and just needs a little more graft and decision making and will definitely be in the positive column.
Just looked up Charlie Owens as his name meant nothing to me. 23 now - has played 19 minutes first team action - all for us. What a waste of presumably some natural talent
@thedieharder Nathan Evans was a winger wasn't he?
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub Adeniran can break defensive lines, i.e. surge past opponents with the ball, which is every bit as important as creativity. I think he's a fantastic talent and would love to see more of him alongside Thompson over the rest of the season.
It's a strong list. I'll go further - for a club of our size and budget it's an impressive list. Well done Gaz and Dobbo.
According to this, yes. https://gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/nathan-evans-earns-wycombe-wanderers-7088570
I think Freeman has been disappointing about 80% of the times I've seen him play, he just shows so little confidence.
When he took the penalty against Brentford, you knew he'd miss by the way he walked to the spot. I am surprised he's stayed with us so long.
Has been out injured for around 12 months after a torn knee cartilage. Still not right after two operations. Your comment is somewhat harsh even for you Dev.
Apologies - On Wikipedia it listed him as a central midfield.
Morris was a good player...but did not seem to shine at Pompey. Or did I miss something.
Ah didn't consider the possibility that Owens may have been long term injured @mooneyman . Poor lad.