There is no perfect solution. If Doncaster say were awarded three points, other teams that subsequently didn't beat Bolton could argue that that wasn't fair either.
@Ozzie_the_Relaxed said:
I disagree with the fixed penalty if financial and not points for missing a fixture. Say the fine was hypothetically £50k, we would struggle to find that but say a Sunderland might say it’s chump change and use this as an advantage. 3 points deducted and compensation to the other team imho.
@floyd said:
Very possibly the EFL have decided that since Bolton are going down anyway another three points is neither here nor there. It's not fair on Doncaster, but short of awarding them the three points automatically there's not much the EFL can do.
Yep, bad luck for Doncaster, but then everyone would be up in arms if they got an actual 3 pointer for nothing, even distinct from a few teams in effect getting a freebie.
@chairboyscentral said:
Doncaster will now have to play a stronger Bolton team when they should have benefitted from playing them at the beginning of the season like we did - although that in itself feels a ludicrous thing to say. They also have to play a midweek away game late in the season, when the original fixture was postponed entirely because of their opponents - not really fair. One thing's for sure: the integrity of League One has been badly damaged this season.
Meant latER in the season, game still hasn't been rescheduled.
@Twizz said:
There wasn't any need to punish Bolton though, they should simply have awarded the 3 points to the opposition teams for the matches that Bolton didn't fulfil.
That way, IMHO, everyone would have been treated fairly.
Although Doncaster would have lost out on a fairly sizeable chunk of money from the loss of a game against a (nominally) well supported club.
I think if they were to have received the 3 points and financial compensation (from a pot that probably needs to be created), then it would have been fair.
It was the away game, so Donny wouldn't be entitled to any compensation for ticket sales.
Oh yes. So it was. Don’t know why I thought it was the other way round
Bolton should definitely have had a points deduction, simply because leniency in a competition punishes others. If Bolton do something worthy of a deduction, but are spared, you are in effect giving points deductions to the rest of the division, which could have severe consequences for relegation threatened clubs. I know Bolton should still go down, but imagine if they were saved on goal difference, with Accrington going down instead? A few years from now, we might read that Accrington have gone extinct out of the Conference North. All because Bolton had been "punished enough". Yet Accrington fulfilled all of their fixtures when Bolton did not.
Put it another way - if Bolton were saved from relegation but Macclesfield went down, you would have two clubs (Macclesfield and L1 club) who went down because Bolton were treated differently. Or even if Macclesfield did not have the deduction, you could have two clubs (L1 and L2) go down because Bolton AND Macclesfield were treated differently to prior offenders.
I am all for extreme leniency in internal matters (club struggling financially given more time to find a buyer, etc), but in the case of competitive violations (and I include financial doping in this), there HAS to be fairness, as any inconsistency or lack of punishment can have a grave knock on effect for other clubs in the competition.
Bolton haven't a hope of making up that gap on 3rd bottom, they'd need promotion form, which seemingly even the top dogs can't produce consistently, so while a lot of the above is very true, it won't come to pass.
With 23 games to play and with a continuation of their current form, I don’t think it is totally beyond the realms of possibility that they could overhaul Southend and two of the four clubs immediately above Southend. Unlikely, admittedly.
@chairboyscentral , I read the Accrington chairman's latest twitter rant. As ever I think with him good at general ranting light on substance.
its an interesting conversation but in truth I don't understand fully what you are arguing. I wonder if you could expand. Lets say it is May 1 2019. what has happened in the past before that date has happened and cannot now be changed. you are now in charge of the EFL.
Bolton are in administration and have just failed to fulfil a fixture.
Bury are not in administration but you are aware that they are in financial trouble
Macclesfield are not in administration but you are aware that they are in financial trouble.
from 1 May 2019, what decisions would you (AT THE TIME those decisions were made with the information available at the time) have done differently in respect of any of the three clubs.
Bolton and Bury issue now appears done at least as far as the EFL are concerned. Macclesfield maybe not so. Would you implement the 4pt suspended penalty given that they missed a second fixture. If they go into administration in the rest of this season and then are "saved" would you implement a further points penalty , if so how much.
Although I know they have budgetted for relegation given the dire form of Southend and a few of the teams above the relegation zone, it is not outside the realms of possibility that Bolton might crawl over the line. Should be docked three points in my view.
Bolton have achieved 15 points in their last 10 games. Extrapolating that form to their last 23 games would result in approximately 35 more points to add to the 7 they already have making a total of 42 points.
Probably not enough, even with only three going down. However a few big signings in this window could get them nearer the cut line.
@DevC said: @chairboyscentral , I read the Accrington chairman's latest twitter rant. As ever I think with him good at general ranting light on substance.
Just wondering how you managed to come to that conclusion? Did it involve a pot and a kettle?
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
@micra said:
With 23 games to play and with a continuation of their current form, I don’t think it is totally beyond the realms of possibility that they could overhaul Southend and two of the four clubs immediately above Southend. Unlikely, admittedly.
There's more chance of you and me forming a strip combo, and announcing a 93 date 2020 tour of the UK.
@DevC said:
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
He’s actually a really nice fella. Accrington in terms off ground and team have never been so good, he speaks his mind on Twitter and to me that should be applauded.
@DevC said:
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
He’s actually a really nice fella. Accrington in terms off ground and team have never been so good, he speaks his mind on Twitter and to me that should be applauded.
@DevC said:
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
He’s actually a really nice fella. Accrington in terms off ground and team have never been so good, he speaks his mind on Twitter and to me that should be applauded.
@DevC said:
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
He’s actually a really nice fella. Accrington in terms off ground and team have never been so good, he speaks his mind on Twitter and to me that should be applauded.
Do you know everyone up north personally
Everyone up North is nice.
You obviously don’t go into the same sort of pubs as I do...
@DevC said:
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
He’s actually a really nice fella. Accrington in terms off ground and team have never been so good, he speaks his mind on Twitter and to me that should be applauded.
Do you know everyone up north personally
No just the important people! I've traveled a few times on the accy team bus. Not so much lately but when they won promotion the other year.
@DevC said:
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
He’s actually a really nice fella. Accrington in terms off ground and team have never been so good, he speaks his mind on Twitter and to me that should be applauded.
Do you know everyone up north personally
No just the important people! I've traveled a few times on the accy team bus. Not so much lately but when they won promotion the other year.
How did that come about? Know a player or two or something? Or, the chairman as per above!
@DevC said:
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
He’s actually a really nice fella. Accrington in terms off ground and team have never been so good, he speaks his mind on Twitter and to me that should be applauded.
Do you know everyone up north personally
No just the important people! I've traveled a few times on the accy team bus. Not so much lately but when they won promotion the other year.
How did that come about? Know a player or two or something? Or, the chairman as per above!
Mates with the manager John. Jimmy and John the 2 coaches too. Also mates with Mark Hughes the centre half and know a couple of the other players too.
Them 4 are all from Kirkby. Though none of them live here anymore. The only time I want them to lose is when they us!
Comments
There is no perfect solution. If Doncaster say were awarded three points, other teams that subsequently didn't beat Bolton could argue that that wasn't fair either.
Very good point!
Yep, bad luck for Doncaster, but then everyone would be up in arms if they got an actual 3 pointer for nothing, even distinct from a few teams in effect getting a freebie.
I hope Doncaster go there and thrash them.
Meant latER in the season, game still hasn't been rescheduled.
Oh yes. So it was. Don’t know why I thought it was the other way round
Bolton should definitely have had a points deduction, simply because leniency in a competition punishes others. If Bolton do something worthy of a deduction, but are spared, you are in effect giving points deductions to the rest of the division, which could have severe consequences for relegation threatened clubs. I know Bolton should still go down, but imagine if they were saved on goal difference, with Accrington going down instead? A few years from now, we might read that Accrington have gone extinct out of the Conference North. All because Bolton had been "punished enough". Yet Accrington fulfilled all of their fixtures when Bolton did not.
Put it another way - if Bolton were saved from relegation but Macclesfield went down, you would have two clubs (Macclesfield and L1 club) who went down because Bolton were treated differently. Or even if Macclesfield did not have the deduction, you could have two clubs (L1 and L2) go down because Bolton AND Macclesfield were treated differently to prior offenders.
I am all for extreme leniency in internal matters (club struggling financially given more time to find a buyer, etc), but in the case of competitive violations (and I include financial doping in this), there HAS to be fairness, as any inconsistency or lack of punishment can have a grave knock on effect for other clubs in the competition.
Bolton haven't a hope of making up that gap on 3rd bottom, they'd need promotion form, which seemingly even the top dogs can't produce consistently, so while a lot of the above is very true, it won't come to pass.
With 23 games to play and with a continuation of their current form, I don’t think it is totally beyond the realms of possibility that they could overhaul Southend and two of the four clubs immediately above Southend. Unlikely, admittedly.
Well worth reading this thread:
@chairboyscentral , I read the Accrington chairman's latest twitter rant. As ever I think with him good at general ranting light on substance.
its an interesting conversation but in truth I don't understand fully what you are arguing. I wonder if you could expand. Lets say it is May 1 2019. what has happened in the past before that date has happened and cannot now be changed. you are now in charge of the EFL.
Bolton are in administration and have just failed to fulfil a fixture.
Bury are not in administration but you are aware that they are in financial trouble
Macclesfield are not in administration but you are aware that they are in financial trouble.
from 1 May 2019, what decisions would you (AT THE TIME those decisions were made with the information available at the time) have done differently in respect of any of the three clubs.
Bolton and Bury issue now appears done at least as far as the EFL are concerned. Macclesfield maybe not so. Would you implement the 4pt suspended penalty given that they missed a second fixture. If they go into administration in the rest of this season and then are "saved" would you implement a further points penalty , if so how much.
I'm not arguing anything, just thought it was an interesting read as Andy Holt usually is on all matters EFL.
Although I know they have budgetted for relegation given the dire form of Southend and a few of the teams above the relegation zone, it is not outside the realms of possibility that Bolton might crawl over the line. Should be docked three points in my view.
There will absolutely be uproar if they stay up by 3 points or fewer.
Bolton have achieved 15 points in their last 10 games. Extrapolating that form to their last 23 games would result in approximately 35 more points to add to the 7 they already have making a total of 42 points.
Probably not enough, even with only three going down. However a few big signings in this window could get them nearer the cut line.
They'll finish above Southend and could stay up, but I'm not convinced there are two teams bad enough to both finish below Bolton.
*two other teams
Just wondering how you managed to come to that conclusion? Did it involve a pot and a kettle?
Andy Holt strikes me as the classic populist in the Farage mode. He rants, he constantly implies that the "establishment" are conspiring to do people like him down but very rarely when you look closely is there any real substance to assess.
Which is why I asked you whether there are any specific decisions the EFL took from 1 May 2019 in respect of Bolton, Bury and Macc you disagreed with.
For what its worth I think the EFL have handled all three cases from 1 May 2019 just about spot on, balancing the integrity of the competition against the wish to give all three clubs every chance to survive. The only EFL decision I think I disagree with is the decision to appeal the commissions judgement not to impose further points penalties on Bolton. I agreed with the commission on that.
In respect of Macc, I think the suspended four points deduction should now be levied. If they go into administration in 2020 I would levy a further two point penalty taking their overall penalty to twelve.
There's more chance of you and me forming a strip combo, and announcing a 93 date 2020 tour of the UK.
The geriatric chippendales?
'The Wanderers' they shuffle about on the stage a bit to 'We'll Meet Again' ?
Now my last post I accept IS possibly a case of kettle and a pot!
He’s actually a really nice fella. Accrington in terms off ground and team have never been so good, he speaks his mind on Twitter and to me that should be applauded.
Do you know everyone up north personally
Everyone up North is nice.
You obviously don’t go into the same sort of pubs as I do...
No just the important people! I've traveled a few times on the accy team bus. Not so much lately but when they won promotion the other year.
How did that come about? Know a player or two or something? Or, the chairman as per above!
Mates with the manager John. Jimmy and John the 2 coaches too. Also mates with Mark Hughes the centre half and know a couple of the other players too.
Them 4 are all from Kirkby. Though none of them live here anymore. The only time I want them to lose is when they us!