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Accrington Owner's Twitter Message

Anyobe else following the Twitter feed of Accrington owner Andy Holt?
This mornings series of messages about the problems in football are thought provoking and outside any owner or chairman communication I have seen recently.

Hopefully someone with more technical knowledge can post the link. The points raised might come from his own personal interest in parts but are all interesting in the context of our current plight.

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Comments

  • edited May 14

    Rarely disagree with anything he says, would have him at Wycombe in a heartbeat

  • If only someone with the intelligence, awareness and honesty of Andy Holt was running football in this country.

  • However - and I write this only to get some kind of debate going, so don't shoot me down - what would you actually do?
    It's a bit like being in government opposition. You can criticise every decision those in power make and point out all the faults in policy and strategy without (necessarily) having to come up with any credible alternatives because that's your role.
    If you were in the position of having to make the choices everybody else gets to point out what would be their shortcomings.

    Over to the gasroom ....

  • @Twizz said:
    However - and I write this only to get some kind of debate going, so don't shoot me down - what would you actually do?
    It's a bit like being in government opposition. You can criticise every decision those in power make and point out all the faults in policy and strategy without (necessarily) having to come up with any credible alternatives because that's your role.
    If you were in the position of having to make the choices everybody else gets to point out what would be their shortcomings.

    Over to the gasroom ....

    A lot of things which have disproportionately favoured the interests of the Premier League need to be rolled back, like EPPP.

    The elite Premier League clubs make bucket loads of cash, whilst everyone else fights for scraps like something out of a Dickensian novel.

    I also think Premier League clubs should not be allowed to retain U18, U21 and U23 teams larger than certain sizes, with a hard limit on the number of players loaned out, to stop them stockpiling talent and subsequently letting it rot.

  • VOTE OXFORDBLUE

  • It's hard to know what it will take to effect change. Five or ten clubs going to the wall? It has become almost surreal how insistent the governing bodies are on turning a blind eye to the clear rot at the center of the sport.

  • @drcongo said:
    VOTE OXFORDBLUE

    I need a campaign manager. Are you interested?

  • @OxfordBlue said:

    @Twizz said:
    However - and I write this only to get some kind of debate going, so don't shoot me down - what would you actually do?
    It's a bit like being in government opposition. You can criticise every decision those in power make and point out all the faults in policy and strategy without (necessarily) having to come up with any credible alternatives because that's your role.
    If you were in the position of having to make the choices everybody else gets to point out what would be their shortcomings.

    Over to the gasroom ....

    A lot of things which have disproportionately favoured the interests of the Premier League need to be rolled back, like EPPP.

    The elite Premier League clubs make bucket loads of cash, whilst everyone else fights for scraps like something out of a Dickensian novel.

    I also think Premier League clubs should not be allowed to retain U18, U21 and U23 teams larger than certain sizes, with a hard limit on the number of players loaned out, to stop them stockpiling talent and subsequently letting it rot.

    These are useful changes, but they don't touch the big picture - clubs spending beyond their means.

    Giving clubs below the Premier league more money would be good - but the clubs that are going to the absolute line now, will still surely do the same, they'll just drill through more money.
    It's like when they reckon if you give everyone in the world Β£1m each and freedom to do whatever, by the end of the day some will be in debt, and some will have loads more.

    Financial fair play, limiting what level of wage/spend you can have versus turnover SHOULD be the way to stop clubs going to the wall.
    Why isn't it though?

  • edited May 14

    I think part of the problem is that the clubs racking up debt inflates it for everyone else, and it becomes a vicious cycle.

    To use a similar analogy to @Malone, it's as if most reasonably priced houses are worth 100,000, and everyone has around 100,000 to spend, but some people want the massive mansions, or to overpay for the reasonable houses to make sure they get what they want, or even to buy several houses that they do not need, so they go into debt to overspend, and the whole real estate market rises. Suddenly, reasonable houses are being priced at 120,000, but the fair minded folks still only have the 100,000. The whole market then continues to inflate, but the income levels are not inflating at the same pace, and you end up in a situation where Wycombe live in a shed in Man City's backyard.

    The scary thing really is that trickle down - in some ways, the Championship is worse than the PL, because although the PL practically has a copyright on greed, they are still racking up ridiculous money. But in the Championship, it is simply sitting at the casino table, hoping to hit the jackpot.

  • I blame Thatcher.

  • Limit Squad Sizes at all levels and only one side allowed at all levels. U11 to U16 do not need to be bigger than 20 players.

    They should have a maximum of 4 more sides U18, U21, Reserves and first team.

    Squad sizes of not more than 22 for U18/U21.

    Reserves and 1st team squad, max of 30 combined. You don't need more. Use your 18's / 21's to bolster reserves.

    Max of 10 players allowed out on loan at any one time.

    No payments allowed to anyone Under 16.

    EPPP Banned / Reset.

    Match day squads to be reduced back to 15 players. 1 keeper and 3 outfield players on the bench.

    EFL First Team Squads - max of 25 players (including loan players).

    If you go into administration, one division relegation from the next season but from the league you are meant to start that season in.

    So, if you finish in relegation zone in 2019, you should start 2020 in league one but if you're in admin this adds a 2nd relegation. e.g. finish in Championship relegation zone you go straight to League Two for the following season. Bolton would be in League Two next year.

    If you get promoted, you don't go up if you're in admin.

    Make HMRC creditor of choice.

    Reduce amount of betting / gambling sponsorship in football. It's clearly a mental health issue now. We've banned tobacco and some alcohol advertising, this should be next.

    Allow 4G pitches at League One and Two, so club can become a community hub. If they're accepted in Champions League and World Cup qualifying, why not in Tier 3 and 4 in England?

    Allow Semi-Pro teams in L1 & L2 if they want to.

    3 teams relegated and promoted from L2/National League.

    4 teams up/down from Prem to Cham and Cham to L1. Would be much more interesting.

    Just a few ideas for starters!

  • In EFL games, one side should play in skins, saves on the laundry bill. Also clubs should follow WWFC example and not stock crisps! Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

  • Not letting premier league reserves in the checkatrade for one and having proper checks for fit and proper ownership. And perhaps not fining an owner for buying his players a burger after a win while turning a blind eye to owners asset stripping clubs and threatening supporters who complain. Get a good crisp manufacturer to sponsor the league. It all has to start somewhere.

  • But surely in a market driven society we have to accept that some businesses (as that's what a football.club is) will go bust if their income is always lower than their expense.
    It's not the EFL or Premier League or FA that have dictated to football clubs how much they spend after all. Each club has chosen for itself how much to spend. If they act afford to spend then they shouldn't. Tough luck if they go bankrupt due to poor financial management is what I say.

    Where's the forum where they debate how Debenhams, HMV or HOF shouldn't be allowed to fail because it's "Part of our heritage" or "We've been on this High Street for 131yrs"?
    It doesn't happen because in said society it's every man and business for itself and if my next pay rise comes about because the business I work for is doing better than my neighbours, who loses his job next week but his firm.is s**t, then I don't care?

    Why is football such a special business case that we have to ensure no club goes bust?

  • @Twizz said:
    But surely in a market driven society we have to accept that some businesses (as that's what a football.club is) will go bust if their income is always lower than their expense.
    It's not the EFL or Premier League or FA that have dictated to football clubs how much they spend after all. Each club has chosen for itself how much to spend. If they act afford to spend then they shouldn't. Tough luck if they go bankrupt due to poor financial management is what I say.

    Where's the forum where they debate how Debenhams, HMV or HOF shouldn't be allowed to fail because it's "Part of our heritage" or "We've been on this High Street for 131yrs"?
    It doesn't happen because in said society it's every man and business for itself and if my next pay rise comes about because the business I work for is doing better than my neighbours, who loses his job next week but his firm.is s**t, then I don't care?

    Why is football such a special business case that we have to ensure no club goes bust?

    I think I tend to side with the bulk of your arguments in principle.

    Might it be possible to distinguish the situation in football from that on the high street? For example, while the whole high street might fail, there is a vibrant online marketplace potentially capable, let's say, of replacing it and operating much more efficiently.

    In the case of football, the allocation of resources has changed significantly over the past umpteen years in a way that has advantaged the haves over the have-nots. This may be justified in many cases. I suppose the question might be whether the clubs that are going to the wall are doing so because of their inefficiency or maladministration or because the environment is too hostile to support them. If it's at least partly the latter, does one let Bolton (and, perhaps, by the sounds of it, Wycombe in due course) go and hope that they are replaced with more resilient clubs? Potentially so - as I say, I'm largely onside with the idea that pressure makes diamonds - but if one were the PL, you might want to be confident you weren't going to be one of only twenty clubs in existence in thirty years' time.

    Or would you?

  • @Twizz The High Street debate us very much alive and active if you care to research. Look at the advantages of the online seller, landlord rent, business rates as well as car parking rates.

  • I don’t disagree with most of what he’s said but I do disagree with the platform he’s used to say it. As the chairman of a club, he has direct access to the people that matter in this debate so why does he choose Twitter to express his views?

  • Its the modern way. It is probable that Andy Holt has expressed these views in the relevant meetings - his Twitter comments let other people know his thinking. There is a problem sometimes when people predominantly use social media and don't raise issues directly but I doubt this applies here.

  • I’m sure you’re right Baldric but because it’s the modern way doesn’t mean it’s the right way. Could there be some ego at play here? Is he keen to display his β€˜man of the people’ credentials without (as Twizz said) doing anything practical to help solve the problems to which he refers?

  • Seems like he's been doing a lot of practical things to save Stanley, turn the club around and make them a part of their local community. He's also trying to take the debate to a wider audience via Twitter. It's the modern way.

  • I've made similar comments to yourself in other places questioning motive. Important I think to try not to let personality and method become the focus of debate, if there is agreement about the bigger issue. Divide and rule only helps really those with the power not those seeking change.

  • @Baldric said:
    I've made similar comments to yourself in other places questioning motive. Important I think to try not to let personality and method become the focus of debate, if there is agreement about the bigger issue. Divide and rule only helps really those with the power not those seeking change.

    I agree.

  • @MindlessDrugHoover said:
    Seems like he's been doing a lot of practical things to save Stanley, turn the club around and make them a part of their local community. He's also trying to take the debate to a wider audience via Twitter. It's the modern way.

    I’m not questioning the excellent work he’s done for Accrington, but as I said to Baldric, I don’t think patting yourself on the back on Twitter is going to solve any problems.

  • Andy Holt's tweets do contain a certain amount of self promotion. I got the impression there was a specific reason and/or target for the tweets.

    Trouble for him and other club owners (including ourselves) doing things the right way are that any living within your means gives a competitive disadvantage against those who don't.

    Football won't change as it is run by those who have everything they need. It will need a catastrophe to change it and until a high profile club goes bust nothing will change.

  • @glasshalffull said:
    I’m sure you’re right Baldric but because it’s the modern way doesn’t mean it’s the right way. Could there be some ego at play here? Is he keen to display his β€˜man of the people’ credentials without (as Twizz said) doing anything practical to help solve the problems to which he refers?

    I certainly don't disagree with the points you make here regarding his self-congratulatory tone. However, as Baldric suggests, it is highly likely that he has followed the correct avenues previously to express his concerns. Surely taking to Twitter to make these points to a mass audience is just a modern, uncensored alternative to writing an article in a national newspaper or giving an interview?

  • As long as people look at football clubs as businesses (like Twizz) then we're going to be endlessly in this shit. If you look at them as vital community hubs connecting people from all walks of life in a shared passion with a sense of civic pride then it's possible to see them as something much more important than Debenhams. This blog post perfectly sums up my feelings about my other love Clapton CFC, a club founded entirely on those principles when an unscrupulous owner was trying to steal the club it was born out of.

    Side note: the blog post's author wrote Pirates, Punks and Politics - one of my favourite football books.

  • "Trouble for him and other club owners (including ourselves) doing things the right way are that any living within your means gives a competitive disadvantage against those who don't."

    Spot on, and one of the main issues I had with the Trust presentation regarding proposed new investment. Basically saying on the one hand that the vast majority of privately owned football clubs are in serious financial trouble, but also that we need to be more like them.

  • It's very interesting that there has some debate on here this morning about the motive behind the use of twitter and less about why football might be treated differently to other businesses.
    I have to say I expected more passionate defence of football!

  • @drcongo said:
    As long as people look at football clubs as businesses (like Twizz) then we're going to be endlessly in this shit. If you look at them as vital community hubs connecting people from all walks of life in a shared passion with a sense of civic pride then it's possible to see them as something much more important than Debenhams. This blog post perfectly sums up my feelings about my other love Clapton CFC, a club founded entirely on those principles when an unscrupulous owner was trying to steal the club it was born out of.

    Side note: the blog post's author wrote Pirates, Punks and Politics - one of my favourite football books.

    This is absolutely spot on.

    I often look around the Vere Suite before kick off and notice just how many different types of people are sat around chatting and drinking together.

    The single pensioners, the families with little kids, the young lads on the beers, and also a lot of vulnerable people from the community with disabilities.

    I often ponder where all these people would be every Saturday without WWFC? Would they be able to replace the social side of things with an equivalent of equal quality in the Wycombe area?

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