@glasshalffull - we started time wasting before 50 minutes. First half, goal kick to Wycombe ball is lying dead right side of penalty area. McCarthy walks by it and subtlely knocks it 5 yards to his right. Henderson has 5 yards further to "jog" and collect before returning to the furthest side of the goal area to take the kick. Like it or not that is time wasting/game management/dirsupting the rhythm call it what you will.
The frustrating thing is our time wasting often seems unnecessary and is sometimes costly. There are matches where we play well, work hard, take the lead and then rather than continue to ‘manage’ the game, we mess around in the corner flag and, in some cases, let the opposition back into it. Last Saturday, v Barnsley, was a great example of how to remain in control and protect a lead without resorting to the black arts. Southend in the playoff final was the opposite example, when we gave up trying to play football and concentrated on wasting time when there was still 30 mins to play.
Have our ‘keepers collectively reached five yellows yet? I think there should be a rule that, if that happens, the current incumbent should be suspended.
I was amused by the time-wasting chant when it first emerged (when time-wasting was so excessive that opposition forums talked of little else. What happened to her, by the way?). It grates a bit now.
Like it or not, this is a professional sport and players will do anything they can within the laws of the game in order to gain an advantage. Whether or not it can be counter productive is a good point, but personally I have no problem with our tactics whilst accepting that others might find them disappointing.
@Wisdom_Of_Harry is spot on: we were into our slower "routines" well before half-time.
If these habits, such as of ignoring a ball right next to you rather than returning it to your keeper to take a goal kick, were consistently applied by us, whether winning or losing, one might be able to say otherwise. As it is, these are unquestionably unsporting actions, whether technically within the rules or not and whether or not the referee identifies the behaviour and adds on time to compensate. The fact that other teams do it, which I think they largely but not uniformly do, is irrelevant to me in considering whether or not the actions of the team I support (put my name to, as it were) are ones to be proud of, neutral about or slightly or very embarrassed about.
Though I somewhat admire the apparently well-drilled nature of them, I would much rather they avoided most of the time-wasting behaviours and played at a more appropriate and natural tempo. As others noted above, it is not certainly the case that they benefit from what they do. We were well on top yesterday at 2-0. Arguably, we could and should have had at least a third even with the style we played thereafter - Samuels's second half miss was a tremendous chance and there were other good ones too - but we did somewhat let them into the game a bit by reducing the tempo so early.
We certainly saw the more obvious side of our time wasting yesterday, more than in recent games anyway. That’s hardly surprising when we were two up so early though.
As mentioned in my earlier post we slowed the whole pace of the game down after the second, which made no sense at all to me because they couldn’t handle our quick attacks at all. I honestly think that had we not done this then we could have gone on to win 4 or 5 nil, we were that dominant until the change of approach.
‘That’ chant was amusing at first but I agree that all it does now is contribute to a reputation that was earned 3/4 seasons ago and is no longer deserved. If we’re worse than other teams it’s marginal.
Pedantic as I possibly am (!) and much as I admire Malone and try to defer to him, I can’t resist commenting on a teacher’s misspelling of Alex Samuel’s name. Do they still do lines @HCblue ?! ?
@glasshalffull said:
Like it or not, this is a professional sport and players will do anything they can within the laws of the game in order to gain an advantage. Whether or not it can be counter productive is a good point, but personally I have no problem with our tactics whilst accepting that others might find them disappointing.
Over recent years ex-players now employed as co-commentators, typically Glenn Hoddle & Danny Murphy, have announced "good foul" or "necessary foul" when a threatening attack has been stopped by a foul. I now look forward to hearing "brilliant piece of time wasting by the Chairboys" in future commentaries by any in that profession with blue tinted spectacles.
You obviously don’t enjoy the professional aspects to a professional sport. That’s your prerogative, but I don’t have a problem with it and that’s my prerogative.
@micra said:
Pedantic as I possibly am (!) and much as I admire Malone and try to defer to him, I can’t resist commenting on a teacher’s misspelling of Alex Samuel’s name. Do they still do lines @HCblue ?! ?
They don't but perhaps they should, @micra. At least for recalcitrant teachers. I got it into my head that he had an "s" at the end of his name.
@glasshalffull said:
the professional aspects to a professional sport.
You jest I presume - the ability to waste time is not exclusive to professionals - it's just as prevalent on the Rye as it is at Adams Park.
I don't have a problem with it either - it was just you seemed suprised a Gillingham fan had accused us of wasting time from 50 minutes when it was pretty clear we had decided to employ some of our game management routines as soon as we scored the second goal. As others have suggested, we were so much in the asendancy why not go for a third - or would only professionals know the answer to that...
@glasshalffull said:
The debate is about time wasting and I get told off for changing the subject!
Nicely avoided
Happy to answer as long as you don’t accuse me of derailing the thread! I dislike diving but I find it very difficult to be absolutely certain when a player has dived. Most incidents are grey rather than black or white and therefore in the eye of the beholder. I don’t think we have any players who consistently indulge in diving though there are, of course, incidents in any game when it might happen. However, like time wasting, opposition teams can be just as guilty of this as Wycombe.
@glasshalffull said:
You obviously don’t enjoy the professional aspects to a professional sport. That’s your prerogative, but I don’t have a problem with it and that’s my prerogative.
Further to @Wisdom_Of_Harry's response, which I wholly adopt, I would add the following:
I enjoy professionalism for the fact that it means that players are able to devote themselves full-time to the development of expertise in their sport. Thus, I derive pleasure from watching a level of skill, teamwork and physicality that would not be possible to the same degree were the participants amateur. Getting some idea of what the human body is capable of when fully devoted to some particular activity is exciting, inspiring and uplifting.
As Harry suggests, I can enjoy an exposition of professional "game management", albeit perhaps not to quite such a refined degree, at any park pitch on a Sunday morning should I want to. The sort of behaviours we are discussing are not unique to professional football: one sees them in most professional sports to some degree, for example in rugby where they are becoming more prevalent. But in no way would I see them as a positive aspect of professional sport, more the price to be paid for allowing people to be devoted full-time to the task of winning sporting contests by whatever means they can legitimately employ. I can live with it but I couldn't describe it as desirable.
Interesting to see a number of Gills fans (they do seem generally sound) having a go at one of their own for being critical of GAs time-wasting tactics.
And further proof of how decent Gareth comes over to others.
Also one for you @glasshalffull a little further on their forum - a no-holds barred Brexit debate. We are a much tamer bunch
I agree that this forum is extremely civilised compared to others that I’ve read, but the desire to be seen as fair minded and unbiased sometimes spills over into unfair criticism of our own team.
I remember Martin O’Neill saying that referees at Adams Park would give decisions to the away team that they’d never give at somewhere like Millwall because our fans wouldn’t give officials as much stick.
I’m as proud as the next fan that we have a reputation for being a friendly, welcoming crowd but a bit of one eyed fanaticism wouldn’t go amiss occasionally!
I've felt for a long time that the game should be reduced to 1 hr but played on a stop clock. Imagine how exciting the final five or ten minutes would be if it was actually spent playing football rather than waiting for subs/physios/free kicks etc. Some games there can be five minutes added on and yet the ball is actually in play for barely a couple of those.
It would add to the spectacle and is easy to implement (neither of which apply to VAR in my view).
Until then, happy for us to use it to our advantage where applicable. I think we deploy it in part because it allows us to play in short, high intensity spurts - press hard for a minute or so and then take a 30 second breather.
@Glenactico said:
I've felt for a long time that the game should be reduced to 1 hr but played on a stop clock. Imagine how exciting the final five or ten minutes would be if it was actually spent playing football rather than waiting for subs/physios/free kicks etc. Some games there can be five minutes added on and yet the ball is actually in play for barely a couple of those.
It would add to the spectacle and is easy to implement (neither of which apply to VAR in my view).
Until then, happy for us to use it to our advantage where applicable. I think we deploy it in part because it allows us to play in short, high intensity spurts - press hard for a minute or so and then take a 30 second breather.
Seems a fair summary of the current position and I like your suggestion for an alternative.
@micra said:
Pedantic as I possibly am (!) and much as I admire Malone and try to defer to him, I can’t resist commenting on a teacher’s misspelling of Alex Samuel’s name. Do they still do lines @HCblue ?! ?
@Steve_Peart Interesting point about time wasting antics of goalkeepers. Both Stockdale and Henderson have, in recent weeks, prepared for their goal kicks at different speeds depending on the position of the game. As both were recruited a matter of a day or so before the matches in question I am struggling to imagine how GA and his staff would have had time to ‘drill’ them in any specific (light and) dark (blue) arts. What it does seem to prove is that players are ‘drilled’ generally across the professional game. It’s not just some strange tactical phenomenon employed exclusively in South Bucks, as certain opposition forums would have us believe. I very much agree that it’s largely self-defeating in terms of time added on. Occasionally when we are under significant pressure, ‘disrupting the flow’ can help us. But the slowing down of the game doesn’t always work in our favour, as noted by a few fans on Sat.
At least @HCblue realised that I was cheekily referring to his own post. I have met the gentleman and I felt sure he would take my comment in the right spirit, as he clearly did. You have referred in the past to my “incessant pedantry” - hence my aside about showing due deference towards you which I have done, probably with unjustifiable generosity, by being careful ever since to avoid criticising minor typos or sloppy English.
Comments
@glasshalffull - we started time wasting before 50 minutes. First half, goal kick to Wycombe ball is lying dead right side of penalty area. McCarthy walks by it and subtlely knocks it 5 yards to his right. Henderson has 5 yards further to "jog" and collect before returning to the furthest side of the goal area to take the kick. Like it or not that is time wasting/game management/dirsupting the rhythm call it what you will.
Isn't the chant just self-mocking?
The frustrating thing is our time wasting often seems unnecessary and is sometimes costly. There are matches where we play well, work hard, take the lead and then rather than continue to ‘manage’ the game, we mess around in the corner flag and, in some cases, let the opposition back into it. Last Saturday, v Barnsley, was a great example of how to remain in control and protect a lead without resorting to the black arts. Southend in the playoff final was the opposite example, when we gave up trying to play football and concentrated on wasting time when there was still 30 mins to play.
Have our ‘keepers collectively reached five yellows yet? I think there should be a rule that, if that happens, the current incumbent should be suspended.
I was amused by the time-wasting chant when it first emerged (when time-wasting was so excessive that opposition forums talked of little else. What happened to her, by the way?). It grates a bit now.
Correct. I was jesting in the first para.
Like it or not, this is a professional sport and players will do anything they can within the laws of the game in order to gain an advantage. Whether or not it can be counter productive is a good point, but personally I have no problem with our tactics whilst accepting that others might find them disappointing.
@Wisdom_Of_Harry is spot on: we were into our slower "routines" well before half-time.
If these habits, such as of ignoring a ball right next to you rather than returning it to your keeper to take a goal kick, were consistently applied by us, whether winning or losing, one might be able to say otherwise. As it is, these are unquestionably unsporting actions, whether technically within the rules or not and whether or not the referee identifies the behaviour and adds on time to compensate. The fact that other teams do it, which I think they largely but not uniformly do, is irrelevant to me in considering whether or not the actions of the team I support (put my name to, as it were) are ones to be proud of, neutral about or slightly or very embarrassed about.
Though I somewhat admire the apparently well-drilled nature of them, I would much rather they avoided most of the time-wasting behaviours and played at a more appropriate and natural tempo. As others noted above, it is not certainly the case that they benefit from what they do. We were well on top yesterday at 2-0. Arguably, we could and should have had at least a third even with the style we played thereafter - Samuels's second half miss was a tremendous chance and there were other good ones too - but we did somewhat let them into the game a bit by reducing the tempo so early.
We certainly saw the more obvious side of our time wasting yesterday, more than in recent games anyway. That’s hardly surprising when we were two up so early though.
As mentioned in my earlier post we slowed the whole pace of the game down after the second, which made no sense at all to me because they couldn’t handle our quick attacks at all. I honestly think that had we not done this then we could have gone on to win 4 or 5 nil, we were that dominant until the change of approach.
‘That’ chant was amusing at first but I agree that all it does now is contribute to a reputation that was earned 3/4 seasons ago and is no longer deserved. If we’re worse than other teams it’s marginal.
Pedantic as I possibly am (!) and much as I admire Malone and try to defer to him, I can’t resist commenting on a teacher’s misspelling of Alex Samuel’s name. Do they still do lines @HCblue ?! ?
Over recent years ex-players now employed as co-commentators, typically Glenn Hoddle & Danny Murphy, have announced "good foul" or "necessary foul" when a threatening attack has been stopped by a foul. I now look forward to hearing "brilliant piece of time wasting by the Chairboys" in future commentaries by any in that profession with blue tinted spectacles.
You obviously don’t enjoy the professional aspects to a professional sport. That’s your prerogative, but I don’t have a problem with it and that’s my prerogative.
Where do you stand on diving?
Including when our players do it?
The debate is about time wasting and I get told off for changing the subject!
I think it’s worth mentioning that the extremes of yesterday were, by the sound of it, an aberration from our ‘normal’ game management.
As someone pointed out, we developed the reputation from a few years back when I must admit I found it embarrassing to watch.
As we’ve progressed though we have become a little more subtle about it and generally we probably aren’t too much better/worse than many other clubs.
The frustrating thing though is that there are times when slowing the game down does adversely effect our play.
Nicely avoided
They don't but perhaps they should, @micra. At least for recalcitrant teachers. I got it into my head that he had an "s" at the end of his name.
You jest I presume - the ability to waste time is not exclusive to professionals - it's just as prevalent on the Rye as it is at Adams Park.
I don't have a problem with it either - it was just you seemed suprised a Gillingham fan had accused us of wasting time from 50 minutes when it was pretty clear we had decided to employ some of our game management routines as soon as we scored the second goal. As others have suggested, we were so much in the asendancy why not go for a third - or would only professionals know the answer to that...
Happy to answer as long as you don’t accuse me of derailing the thread! I dislike diving but I find it very difficult to be absolutely certain when a player has dived. Most incidents are grey rather than black or white and therefore in the eye of the beholder. I don’t think we have any players who consistently indulge in diving though there are, of course, incidents in any game when it might happen. However, like time wasting, opposition teams can be just as guilty of this as Wycombe.
Further to @Wisdom_Of_Harry's response, which I wholly adopt, I would add the following:
I enjoy professionalism for the fact that it means that players are able to devote themselves full-time to the development of expertise in their sport. Thus, I derive pleasure from watching a level of skill, teamwork and physicality that would not be possible to the same degree were the participants amateur. Getting some idea of what the human body is capable of when fully devoted to some particular activity is exciting, inspiring and uplifting.
As Harry suggests, I can enjoy an exposition of professional "game management", albeit perhaps not to quite such a refined degree, at any park pitch on a Sunday morning should I want to. The sort of behaviours we are discussing are not unique to professional football: one sees them in most professional sports to some degree, for example in rugby where they are becoming more prevalent. But in no way would I see them as a positive aspect of professional sport, more the price to be paid for allowing people to be devoted full-time to the task of winning sporting contests by whatever means they can legitimately employ. I can live with it but I couldn't describe it as desirable.
https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/gareth-ainsworth.88747/
Interesting to see a number of Gills fans (they do seem generally sound) having a go at one of their own for being critical of GAs time-wasting tactics.
And further proof of how decent Gareth comes over to others.
Also one for you @glasshalffull a little further on their forum - a no-holds barred Brexit debate. We are a much tamer bunch
I agree that this forum is extremely civilised compared to others that I’ve read, but the desire to be seen as fair minded and unbiased sometimes spills over into unfair criticism of our own team.
I remember Martin O’Neill saying that referees at Adams Park would give decisions to the away team that they’d never give at somewhere like Millwall because our fans wouldn’t give officials as much stick.
I’m as proud as the next fan that we have a reputation for being a friendly, welcoming crowd but a bit of one eyed fanaticism wouldn’t go amiss occasionally!
I've felt for a long time that the game should be reduced to 1 hr but played on a stop clock. Imagine how exciting the final five or ten minutes would be if it was actually spent playing football rather than waiting for subs/physios/free kicks etc. Some games there can be five minutes added on and yet the ball is actually in play for barely a couple of those.
It would add to the spectacle and is easy to implement (neither of which apply to VAR in my view).
Until then, happy for us to use it to our advantage where applicable. I think we deploy it in part because it allows us to play in short, high intensity spurts - press hard for a minute or so and then take a 30 second breather.
Seems a fair summary of the current position and I like your suggestion for an alternative.
@micra you cheeky dastard. I can't even see that I've spelt Alexis Sammuels name wrong on this thread?
Unless you think "arrrseeee" was my attempt.
I wasn’t referring to you you sensitive bod!
But at least I’ve blown your cover as a teacher - primary I assume?!?
Disappointing to hear Fred get a bit of stick yesterday for slipping over a couple of times. He worked hard for his team yesterday for me.
Different Malone? Only one Malone surely
Every second of time wasting was especially jarring yesterday because it meant another second to be standing there....
@Steve_Peart Interesting point about time wasting antics of goalkeepers. Both Stockdale and Henderson have, in recent weeks, prepared for their goal kicks at different speeds depending on the position of the game. As both were recruited a matter of a day or so before the matches in question I am struggling to imagine how GA and his staff would have had time to ‘drill’ them in any specific (light and) dark (blue) arts. What it does seem to prove is that players are ‘drilled’ generally across the professional game. It’s not just some strange tactical phenomenon employed exclusively in South Bucks, as certain opposition forums would have us believe. I very much agree that it’s largely self-defeating in terms of time added on. Occasionally when we are under significant pressure, ‘disrupting the flow’ can help us. But the slowing down of the game doesn’t always work in our favour, as noted by a few fans on Sat.
At least @HCblue realised that I was cheekily referring to his own post. I have met the gentleman and I felt sure he would take my comment in the right spirit, as he clearly did. You have referred in the past to my “incessant pedantry” - hence my aside about showing due deference towards you which I have done, probably with unjustifiable generosity, by being careful ever since to avoid criticising minor typos or sloppy English.
If you'll forgive the pedantry, @malone, that was no gentleman you met, @micra: that was HCblue.
If you say so. And there’s me thinking I’m a good judge of character!
Golden slumber finally kissing my eyes.
Night all.