@glasshalffull the reason we had to sell one of our brightest talents was because of the Eppp. An enemy of English football. His value was far far greater. Shame on Ivor Berks and all those who voted for it
@fedup1980 said:
I had completely lost interest in the national team, years and years of promise hyped up in the media, the constant rolling out of the sixty-six winning team members talking of exciting new prospects. The years of seeing our side stumble through tournaments and then crashing out meant that for people like me, the thought of seeing a new nineteen-ninety semi-final run or better would never come to fruition. Then along came a man that i simply thought wasn't up to snuff, Gareth Southgate. Not exactly a manager filled with winning pedigree, what on earth were the FA thinking?! I had convinced myself that with Gareth at the helm we would struggle past the minnows finishing second in our group before being dumped out of the tournament by Columbia but as we now know, what actually happened was far more inspiring than that.
While it was more inspiring, as you rightly say, we were only the width of a crossbar from precisely the kind of underwhelming scenario you’d expected.
Although I do think there were improvements, many of the same frailties seem to persist. We had a better game plan in this tournament and found a way to get the best from a pool of players that on paper isn’t anything too special. But when we really come up against technically & tactically able opponents we simply cannot keep clean sheets, which in my view is largely down to a lack of strategic awareness and ability to retain possession at key times. I’d argue France and England, for example, have both played very exciting attacking football for short spells during this tournament and look capable of beating anyone when they do. The difference is that during the periods when the play isn’t as free flowing, France keep their composure and retain some control over the tempo of the game. England don’t.
Nonetheless, and perhaps more important than anything, I think a lot has been done to repair some reputational damage around the England team. There have been no big egos, a seemingly down to earth group, modest manager etc. Whatever the result on the pitch I think most people want to be able to support their national team with a sense of pride, and I believe many more have done so during this tournament than at many before it.
The other point about the Premier League and the impact on the England vibe I would like to make is how disconnected most fans are from their heroes these days. When I was a younger man I would see where Wycombe was playing and if I couldn't be bothered to go to a northern fixture I would hop on a train go to London and go and see a West Ham* team of Bonds, Martin, Cottee, Stewart, Brady, etc. I would arrive at lunchtime, have a drink in the local pub, go to the South Bank at about 2:45, pay £4 and go in. These were my players, I cheered them and was invested in them. Now I have more chances of seeing Hamilton than getting to see West Ham play and that is why the players are strangers to me - I have no connection to them at all.
A Preston supporting pal of mine came to the cup game this year and came to the bar afterwards. He was nervous about coming in 'our' bar and then was overwhelmed when a player (an actual player) came into the bar to be interviewed in the bar and cheered by those enjoying a drink. His team won handsomely that day but he left jealous of what we have and the connection we have with our players and club.
Thats what has been lost in recent years by clubs and country. I hope we don't forget that and go backwards to creating barriers with players and fans.
*before anyone is shocked it used to be quite normal to have a local team and a big team. When you are losing to the Met Police in the FA Cup you needed some respite.
I think you’re moral compass is the one in question. You’re dismissing the supporters of 20 clubs and those of dozens of other clubs who would love to see their team play in the PL, just because you don’t approve of it.
I am not saying that I approve of the EPPP but it’s stated aim was to produce more home grown players to help improve the national team. It could be argued that the progress England made in the World Cup could partly be attributed to this.
No I’m not, just stating the reason given for the introduction of EPPP. My personal opinion is that it has harmed clubs in the lower divisions and that is regrettable.
@LX1 said: @fedup1980 dreadful post. You support your town/country wherever you are from. If you have to think about it then football is not for you
Sadly that's rarely the case for kids now; I live in Oxford but most of my kids' friends support Man U or Chelsea, a couple "support" Barcelona (despite being English and doubtless struggling to find the place on a map). One kid I know of "supports" Ronaldo. Only a small handful support Oxford and even fewer actually go to games, and yet they're all football mad. A sad state of affairs.
I agree that kids nowadays are more likely to support the big clubs rather than their local team, but as the prices and availability of tickets make it difficult for them to attend PL games, I’m hoping that many of them will get their football fix at clubs like Wycombe.
I agree it seems that kids are more likely to support the big clubs than their local team, but is that really only a "nowadays" phenomenon? 'Twas always thus, in my experience.
I grew up in a village just outside Southampton and when I was at school, during a period 40 to 50 years ago, those of my peers who expressed support for football teams were fans of the big clubs - Chelsea, Leeds, Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, Liverpool - apart from one boy who decided to support Luton when he saw their orange kit, liked it and bought a shirt. I chose to support Arsenal, seduced by their double-winning success in 1971 and the presence in their team of my first footballing hero, Charlie George. To this day, the only official team shirt that I have ever owned was a 1970s Arsenal one.
I don't think most of us even acknowledged the existence of Southampton FC until the excitement around the FA Cup run and victory in 1976. The family who lived next door kindly invited me round to watch the final in their house as they had colour TV, which we did not. The father in the house was a fan of Manchester United, Southampton's opponents, so it wasn't only the kids who favoured the big teams over the local one. When Bobby Stokes scored the winner, he disappeared upstairs and all that could be heard for the next five minutes was the sound of him smashing the bedroom up! He didn't take the loss very well.
The only people I knew personally who went to watch Southampton regularly while still school age were a couple of girls whose whole family used to go to every home game.
@glasshalffull said:
Gather you don’t really like the Premier League then Johnny?
It's Jonny. I don't dislike the PL itself, but I do dislike (hate) a lot of what it has created.
@glasshalffull said:
Incidentally Jonny, interesting that you mention Brighton and Huddersfield, two clubs who Wycombe have faced in league games not that long ago and therefore proof that it’s still possible to climb through the leagues.
It's not. It's proof that it's still possible to climb through the leagues if you have a wealthy backer who is prepared to spend extraordinary amounts/run up extraordinary amounts of debt.
Take Brighton. Here are their losses over the last four seasons, not including the season just gone as I don't have those figures;
Their chairman Tony Bloom said, “Any Championship club wishing to compete for promotion will inevitably make significant losses.
Yes or no, do you think this is a sound or sustainable way to run a Football League club @glasshalffull?
Also, it was as a direct result of selling one of our best young talents (Jordan Ibe) to a Premier League club that we were able to pay off our biggest debt after he moved to Bournemouth, another club Wycombe have played who went on to climb through the leagues.
Yes, but only because we sold him BEFORE EPPP came in. If we had sold Ibe after, we would have got a low five figure sum for him, instead of the reported £750,000, as EPPP fees are worked out by the number of years the player has been at the developing club and Ibe had only joined us from Charlton five years earlier. Anyway, we can't rely on that anymore, as thanks to EPPP we have had to close our youth system. The last youth team player we sold, just before it closed, was Nathan Mavilla, who moved to PL side West Ham for the princely sum of...£35,000.
By the way, you may recall Andrew Howard saying at a fans forum how hard he'd had to fight to actually get that money from Liverpool, describing dealing with them as one of the worst experiences of his life. Apparently Liverpool tried every trick in the book to try and delay paying us what they owed. Liverpool, one of the richest clubs in the world, trying to jib little cash-strapped Wycombe Wanderers.
So let me ask this question. If Wycombe ever reached the Premier League-and past opponents that we’ve played like Bournemouth, Burnley, Huddersfield, Brighton, Cardiff, and Southampton have all proved that it’s still possible to climb through the divisions-would you stop going to our games?
Of course I wouldn't stop going. I would never give up on my club. I worry that I wouldn't be able to afford a ticket though. I also worry about what financial damage would have been done to the club in order to achieve this promotion and finally I would probably feel that something of the old Wycombe that I first fell in love with had been lost, something Man City and Chelsea supporting friends have complained to me about.
@glasshalffull said:
No I’m not, just stating the reason given for the introduction of EPPP. My personal opinion is that it has harmed clubs in the lower divisions and that is regrettable.
Wow. Regrettable? No. There's no regret from the people that did this. This was a cold and calculated move to ensure that PL clubs could continue to stockpile the best young talent, but now for less money. And when the majority looked like they would say no to the minority, the minority threatened to withdraw 'solidarity payments', knowing full well that doing so would plunge many clubs into financial ruin. But they went ahead and threatened to do it anyway.
Too fucking right it's 'harmed' clubs. WW cited EPPP as a direct reason for us closing our youth system down, destroying a source of players, a source of income, a community asset and the hopes and dreams of scores of young men. Yeovil shut their's too as a result of EPPP. Others may follow.
But sure, suggest other posters 'lack a moral compass' because they don't approve of Premier League greed. Give me strength.
Of course, if you are indeed Alan Parry, then we all know you're actually a Sky-collaborating Liverpool supporter anyway!
Firstly-and I’m not being condescending-I genuinely enjoyed reading your post. It was well researched, well written and clearly came from the heart.
However, as you obviously have such entrenched views, there is little point in me attempting to address your post point-by-point. In any case, some of the arguments you raised were covered earlier in the thread and others I agree with anyway.
I am not trying to be a cheerleader for the PL, but whether you like it or not, it’s one of the great sporting success stories of our times and we have to try and live with it. Most of the Wycombe fans I know also ‘support’ a PL club as well, albeit from afar and mainly through watching them on television.
The PL is powerful, arguably too powerful, but the lower divisions in our country are much stronger than they are in any other nation in the world. I see nothing wrong with FL clubs aspiring to join the elite, at what cost in financial terms is up to the individual club to decide. Running up huge debts isn’t necessarily a consequence of being ambitious and no PL club has ever gone out of business.
You cite the debts incurred by some of those aspirational clubs but on the other side of the argument are clubs like Burnley whose sensible budgeting has enabled them to compete whilst remaining profitable.
To answer your final point, I’m not sure why this is relevant. I was born in Liverpool and supported them as a youngster when they played in the old Second Division in the 1960’s. I have supported Wycombe since the mid-1970’s and I don’t see any clash of interest. Indeed, when the clubs met in the FA Cup semi final I was often asked who I wanted to win and I unhesitatingly said Wycombe every time.
You and others might not agree with my opinions and that is your prerogative, but please don’t ever question my devotion to WWFC.
Fair enough and I didn't mean to question your commitment to our club so apologies if it came across like that.
I haven't always felt so strongly about the PL, but it's something that has built up over the last few years as I've become more aware of the politics side of the game. I know this is just basic capitalism and how things work in 'business', but it is a shame to see sport reduced to a spending contest. You may not agree, but I see it as a new way of cheating and clearly others do too, with the (largely ineffectual) implementation of FFP.
I do feel like we are heading towards some kind of reckoning though. Clubs can't keep spending these obscene sums forever and something is eventually going to give. When it does I fear it could be catastrophic for certain clubs. It's already happened in Scotland in the SPL (Gretna and Rangers) and I think eventually it will happen in our top flight.
It makes me extra proud of the way we're doing things at Wycombe. Many clubs at L1/L2 level are a complete mess financially and are getting by on credit. If anything happens, at least I know Wycombe should be ok.
Full disclosure, when I was about 7 and was yet to discover WW, I said I 'supported' Liverpool, purely because everyone in my class supported Man U (I was the kid who always had to be different). As well as expressing my desire to always go against the grain, this also ensured I had the piss taken out of me on a fairly consistent basis, as Liverpool were pretty crap throughout the nineties and United won everything.
I didn't start going to Wycombe regularly until 1999 and then I never looked back.
At least you're finally admitting who you are, Alan. One doesn't like to blow one's own trumpet but I do recall your response when I first suggested it was you was "guess again" - something that as good as confirmed it as far as I was concerned.
Look, I don’t mind who knows my identity because it doesn’t really matter, not to me anyway. I adopted a nom de plume or whatever you want to call it simply because most other posters have one. I am no longer a director of the club so I can speak freely on any subject but I would never reveal anything that I would consider not to be in the club’s best interests.
Heralding a non existent Standing ovation after a Steve Hayes Stadium grab speech, was certainly not in the clubs interest, hugely beneficial to the loan shark but certainly not WWFC.
That’s your interpretation and your opinion. At the time I had a different view. I detect from previous posts that you don’t have much time for me and I couldn’t be bothered trying to change that so let’s just stay civilised and leave it at that, shall we?
All ways civilised Mr Parry, maybe just an apology for attempting to mislead people that Mr Hayes received a standing ovation, when everyone in that room that night, knew it never happened.
If glasshalffull is really an intelligent serious man in his 60s(?) , I do find his intervention on the thread paying tribute to Peter Carrington even more bizarre. Ho hum.
More interestingly perhaps, I don't really understand EPPP. If payments are so low, why did a tribunal make Chelsea pay Exeter £1.3m up front plus add ons and sell on for 16yo Ethan a Ampadu?
I think some people have read my post and completely missed the point, Andrew Howard stated that had Wycombe got promoted in the play off final then it could have had negative consequences as the club wasn't ready for promotion then. Similarly with England, getting to the final would have been too soon with all the potential in the youth teams coming through providing they actually get club football. Some people were talking about Wycombe not having a youth team so the England comparison didn't make sense which wasn't my point at all.
After watching this world cup with it's ridiculous VAR decisions if it's used again i won't bother wasting my time as it's all geared for the smaller countries to lose,some of the refs would look shit in League 2 let alome the biggest tournament in the world of football.
Comments
@glasshalffull the reason we had to sell one of our brightest talents was because of the Eppp. An enemy of English football. His value was far far greater. Shame on Ivor Berks and all those who voted for it
I don't know if Alan Parry had anything to do with it. Hopefully not
While it was more inspiring, as you rightly say, we were only the width of a crossbar from precisely the kind of underwhelming scenario you’d expected.
Although I do think there were improvements, many of the same frailties seem to persist. We had a better game plan in this tournament and found a way to get the best from a pool of players that on paper isn’t anything too special. But when we really come up against technically & tactically able opponents we simply cannot keep clean sheets, which in my view is largely down to a lack of strategic awareness and ability to retain possession at key times. I’d argue France and England, for example, have both played very exciting attacking football for short spells during this tournament and look capable of beating anyone when they do. The difference is that during the periods when the play isn’t as free flowing, France keep their composure and retain some control over the tempo of the game. England don’t.
Nonetheless, and perhaps more important than anything, I think a lot has been done to repair some reputational damage around the England team. There have been no big egos, a seemingly down to earth group, modest manager etc. Whatever the result on the pitch I think most people want to be able to support their national team with a sense of pride, and I believe many more have done so during this tournament than at many before it.
The other point about the Premier League and the impact on the England vibe I would like to make is how disconnected most fans are from their heroes these days. When I was a younger man I would see where Wycombe was playing and if I couldn't be bothered to go to a northern fixture I would hop on a train go to London and go and see a West Ham* team of Bonds, Martin, Cottee, Stewart, Brady, etc. I would arrive at lunchtime, have a drink in the local pub, go to the South Bank at about 2:45, pay £4 and go in. These were my players, I cheered them and was invested in them. Now I have more chances of seeing Hamilton than getting to see West Ham play and that is why the players are strangers to me - I have no connection to them at all.
A Preston supporting pal of mine came to the cup game this year and came to the bar afterwards. He was nervous about coming in 'our' bar and then was overwhelmed when a player (an actual player) came into the bar to be interviewed in the bar and cheered by those enjoying a drink. His team won handsomely that day but he left jealous of what we have and the connection we have with our players and club.
Thats what has been lost in recent years by clubs and country. I hope we don't forget that and go backwards to creating barriers with players and fans.
*before anyone is shocked it used to be quite normal to have a local team and a big team. When you are losing to the Met Police in the FA Cup you needed some respite.
I think you’re moral compass is the one in question. You’re dismissing the supporters of 20 clubs and those of dozens of other clubs who would love to see their team play in the PL, just because you don’t approve of it.
I am not saying that I approve of the EPPP but it’s stated aim was to produce more home grown players to help improve the national team. It could be argued that the progress England made in the World Cup could partly be attributed to this.
Are you making that argument?
No I’m not, just stating the reason given for the introduction of EPPP. My personal opinion is that it has harmed clubs in the lower divisions and that is regrettable.
Sadly that's rarely the case for kids now; I live in Oxford but most of my kids' friends support Man U or Chelsea, a couple "support" Barcelona (despite being English and doubtless struggling to find the place on a map). One kid I know of "supports" Ronaldo. Only a small handful support Oxford and even fewer actually go to games, and yet they're all football mad. A sad state of affairs.
I agree that kids nowadays are more likely to support the big clubs rather than their local team, but as the prices and availability of tickets make it difficult for them to attend PL games, I’m hoping that many of them will get their football fix at clubs like Wycombe.
I agree it seems that kids are more likely to support the big clubs than their local team, but is that really only a "nowadays" phenomenon? 'Twas always thus, in my experience.
I grew up in a village just outside Southampton and when I was at school, during a period 40 to 50 years ago, those of my peers who expressed support for football teams were fans of the big clubs - Chelsea, Leeds, Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, Liverpool - apart from one boy who decided to support Luton when he saw their orange kit, liked it and bought a shirt. I chose to support Arsenal, seduced by their double-winning success in 1971 and the presence in their team of my first footballing hero, Charlie George. To this day, the only official team shirt that I have ever owned was a 1970s Arsenal one.
I don't think most of us even acknowledged the existence of Southampton FC until the excitement around the FA Cup run and victory in 1976. The family who lived next door kindly invited me round to watch the final in their house as they had colour TV, which we did not. The father in the house was a fan of Manchester United, Southampton's opponents, so it wasn't only the kids who favoured the big teams over the local one. When Bobby Stokes scored the winner, he disappeared upstairs and all that could be heard for the next five minutes was the sound of him smashing the bedroom up! He didn't take the loss very well.
The only people I knew personally who went to watch Southampton regularly while still school age were a couple of girls whose whole family used to go to every home game.
Ok, I'll bite, as the kids say.
It's Jonny. I don't dislike the PL itself, but I do dislike (hate) a lot of what it has created.
It's not. It's proof that it's still possible to climb through the leagues if you have a wealthy backer who is prepared to spend extraordinary amounts/run up extraordinary amounts of debt.
Take Brighton. Here are their losses over the last four seasons, not including the season just gone as I don't have those figures;
13/14: -£10.4m
14/15: -£10.6m
15/16: -£25.9m
16/17: -£38.9m (promoted to PL)
Their chairman Tony Bloom said, “Any Championship club wishing to compete for promotion will inevitably make significant losses.
Yes or no, do you think this is a sound or sustainable way to run a Football League club @glasshalffull?
Yes, but only because we sold him BEFORE EPPP came in. If we had sold Ibe after, we would have got a low five figure sum for him, instead of the reported £750,000, as EPPP fees are worked out by the number of years the player has been at the developing club and Ibe had only joined us from Charlton five years earlier. Anyway, we can't rely on that anymore, as thanks to EPPP we have had to close our youth system. The last youth team player we sold, just before it closed, was Nathan Mavilla, who moved to PL side West Ham for the princely sum of...£35,000.
By the way, you may recall Andrew Howard saying at a fans forum how hard he'd had to fight to actually get that money from Liverpool, describing dealing with them as one of the worst experiences of his life. Apparently Liverpool tried every trick in the book to try and delay paying us what they owed. Liverpool, one of the richest clubs in the world, trying to jib little cash-strapped Wycombe Wanderers.
Of course I wouldn't stop going. I would never give up on my club. I worry that I wouldn't be able to afford a ticket though. I also worry about what financial damage would have been done to the club in order to achieve this promotion and finally I would probably feel that something of the old Wycombe that I first fell in love with had been lost, something Man City and Chelsea supporting friends have complained to me about.
Wow. Regrettable? No. There's no regret from the people that did this. This was a cold and calculated move to ensure that PL clubs could continue to stockpile the best young talent, but now for less money. And when the majority looked like they would say no to the minority, the minority threatened to withdraw 'solidarity payments', knowing full well that doing so would plunge many clubs into financial ruin. But they went ahead and threatened to do it anyway.
Too fucking right it's 'harmed' clubs. WW cited EPPP as a direct reason for us closing our youth system down, destroying a source of players, a source of income, a community asset and the hopes and dreams of scores of young men. Yeovil shut their's too as a result of EPPP. Others may follow.
But sure, suggest other posters 'lack a moral compass' because they don't approve of Premier League greed. Give me strength.
Of course, if you are indeed Alan Parry, then we all know you're actually a Sky-collaborating Liverpool supporter anyway!
Zing!
Post of the year
Hat. Doffed. Superb analysis and answer @Jonny_King
Superb post, it will be interesting to see if HalfglassParry can reply in such an eloquent manner ?
Firstly-and I’m not being condescending-I genuinely enjoyed reading your post. It was well researched, well written and clearly came from the heart.
However, as you obviously have such entrenched views, there is little point in me attempting to address your post point-by-point. In any case, some of the arguments you raised were covered earlier in the thread and others I agree with anyway.
I am not trying to be a cheerleader for the PL, but whether you like it or not, it’s one of the great sporting success stories of our times and we have to try and live with it. Most of the Wycombe fans I know also ‘support’ a PL club as well, albeit from afar and mainly through watching them on television.
The PL is powerful, arguably too powerful, but the lower divisions in our country are much stronger than they are in any other nation in the world. I see nothing wrong with FL clubs aspiring to join the elite, at what cost in financial terms is up to the individual club to decide. Running up huge debts isn’t necessarily a consequence of being ambitious and no PL club has ever gone out of business.
You cite the debts incurred by some of those aspirational clubs but on the other side of the argument are clubs like Burnley whose sensible budgeting has enabled them to compete whilst remaining profitable.
To answer your final point, I’m not sure why this is relevant. I was born in Liverpool and supported them as a youngster when they played in the old Second Division in the 1960’s. I have supported Wycombe since the mid-1970’s and I don’t see any clash of interest. Indeed, when the clubs met in the FA Cup semi final I was often asked who I wanted to win and I unhesitatingly said Wycombe every time.
You and others might not agree with my opinions and that is your prerogative, but please don’t ever question my devotion to WWFC.
Fair enough and I didn't mean to question your commitment to our club so apologies if it came across like that.
I haven't always felt so strongly about the PL, but it's something that has built up over the last few years as I've become more aware of the politics side of the game. I know this is just basic capitalism and how things work in 'business', but it is a shame to see sport reduced to a spending contest. You may not agree, but I see it as a new way of cheating and clearly others do too, with the (largely ineffectual) implementation of FFP.
I do feel like we are heading towards some kind of reckoning though. Clubs can't keep spending these obscene sums forever and something is eventually going to give. When it does I fear it could be catastrophic for certain clubs. It's already happened in Scotland in the SPL (Gretna and Rangers) and I think eventually it will happen in our top flight.
It makes me extra proud of the way we're doing things at Wycombe. Many clubs at L1/L2 level are a complete mess financially and are getting by on credit. If anything happens, at least I know Wycombe should be ok.
Full disclosure, when I was about 7 and was yet to discover WW, I said I 'supported' Liverpool, purely because everyone in my class supported Man U (I was the kid who always had to be different). As well as expressing my desire to always go against the grain, this also ensured I had the piss taken out of me on a fairly consistent basis, as Liverpool were pretty crap throughout the nineties and United won everything.
I didn't start going to Wycombe regularly until 1999 and then I never looked back.
At least you're finally admitting who you are, Alan. One doesn't like to blow one's own trumpet but I do recall your response when I first suggested it was you was "guess again" - something that as good as confirmed it as far as I was concerned.
Look, I don’t mind who knows my identity because it doesn’t really matter, not to me anyway. I adopted a nom de plume or whatever you want to call it simply because most other posters have one. I am no longer a director of the club so I can speak freely on any subject but I would never reveal anything that I would consider not to be in the club’s best interests.
Heralding a non existent Standing ovation after a Steve Hayes Stadium grab speech, was certainly not in the clubs interest, hugely beneficial to the loan shark but certainly not WWFC.
That’s your interpretation and your opinion. At the time I had a different view. I detect from previous posts that you don’t have much time for me and I couldn’t be bothered trying to change that so let’s just stay civilised and leave it at that, shall we?
All ways civilised Mr Parry, maybe just an apology for attempting to mislead people that Mr Hayes received a standing ovation, when everyone in that room that night, knew it never happened.
If glasshalffull is really an intelligent serious man in his 60s(?) , I do find his intervention on the thread paying tribute to Peter Carrington even more bizarre. Ho hum.
More interestingly perhaps, I don't really understand EPPP. If payments are so low, why did a tribunal make Chelsea pay Exeter £1.3m up front plus add ons and sell on for 16yo Ethan a Ampadu?
Can anyone explain?
@DevC I also don't really understand why the EPPP rules seem so different to the rest of Europe.
https://talksport.com/football/236575/football-transfers-most-expensive-fees-paid-teenagers-every-age-13-19-years-old/
Take a day off @LX1 - i like football like everyone else here and i'll write what i damn well please.
I think some people have read my post and completely missed the point, Andrew Howard stated that had Wycombe got promoted in the play off final then it could have had negative consequences as the club wasn't ready for promotion then. Similarly with England, getting to the final would have been too soon with all the potential in the youth teams coming through providing they actually get club football. Some people were talking about Wycombe not having a youth team so the England comparison didn't make sense which wasn't my point at all.
After watching this world cup with it's ridiculous VAR decisions if it's used again i won't bother wasting my time as it's all geared for the smaller countries to lose,some of the refs would look shit in League 2 let alome the biggest tournament in the world of football.