The ref needs to make the final decision.
When it's some faceless posse in a room somewhere, you'll always get the suspicion of who these people are and who they support.
That wouldn't solve anything. VAR is fundamentally terrible, whether it's the onfield ref looking at a tv replay or someone in a studio. Changing that wouldn't solve anything
Get rid of it completely. More and more people are coming to this conclusion. Hopefully we'll reach a tipping point soon and it will be gone forever
@Malone said:
It'll never disappear now - it's in.
What has to change is the way it is applied. Maybe such a massive error in a big game will make them see that.
Why not? I would understand if the issues were only technical, or in how it's applied, but it's not.
The use of it has made more people realise that the flow of the game, the subjectivity of decisions and other non -tangible things like the emotion of celebrating a goal are more important than clinical accuracy with decisions (As plenty of us who go to games week in week out have said all along).
VAR is in serious danger of becoming one of those national mass hysteria events where we get absorbed by "whataboutitis" and look for more reasons to support our preconceived ideas rather than looking at the reality of what has really happened.
My preconceived view is that VAR is a good thing but that we can improve the way we use it - perhaps inevitably with new (to us) technology. I would for example seek to replay the action on screens at stadia and mike up referees so that the crowd can understand what is being discussed.
it may be I am wrong though. rational discussion can be difficult in these circumstances. So perhaps to try to look objectively at how VAR is impacting the premier league (good and bad) I suggest we look at say the third game each week on Saturday afternoon - no games next week, two weeks time it will be Bournemouth v Wolves. See what happens in that game.
The use of it has made more people realise that the flow of the game, the subjectivity of decisions and other non -tangible things like the emotion of celebrating a goal are more important than clinical accuracy with decisions (As plenty of us who go to games week in week out have said all along).
Completely Agree. We just need managers to accept referees will occasionally make mistakes and stop blaming them for defeats so often.
@DevC said:
VAR is in serious danger of becoming one of those national mass hysteria events where we get absorbed by "whataboutitis" and look for more reasons to support our preconceived ideas rather than looking at the reality of what has really happened.
My preconceived view is that VAR is a good thing but that we can improve the way we use it - perhaps inevitably with new (to us) technology. I would for example seek to replay the action on screens at stadia and mike up referees so that the crowd can understand what is being discussed.
it may be I am wrong though. rational discussion can be difficult in these circumstances. So perhaps to try to look objectively at how VAR is impacting the premier league (good and bad) I suggest we look at say the third game each week on Saturday afternoon - no games next week, two weeks time it will be Bournemouth v Wolves. See what happens in that game.
You can't mic the refs up in football, it just won't work. The powers that be know this or I'm sure it would have been tried out way before Var.
VAR will not be shelved; the powers that be have invested too much in it. I'm pretty fed up with it having been very pro-VAR before, but what really gets me is how officials in other countries seem to have few problems with it. Are our officials just stupid?
Our refereeing is poor at the moment - undoubtedly. Do have to remember though that our referees have had ten weeks or so of getting used to it - German referees are in their third season, it will settle down.
I think the fact a player's nose or toe (even if not interfering with play) can put him offside is making a mockery of VAR and the on-pitch officials. And as I said before I suspect VAR decisions for the big clubs will mirror past referee decisions for the big clubs especially when the decision is a big money one.
Why can't refs be miked up (a separate issue) and a fourth official in the stand advise the ref if he's missed a serious incident (eg Zidane's headbutt and Maradona's handball), and leave it at that?
For me it's not a price worth paying without a fundamental rethink.
As a means of checking for clear and obvious errors I can see its worth (for example to use the elbow to the face in the France v Wales game where the VAR/TMO saw something critical that the referee missed, it would definitely be an asset).
But taking the two main talking points of this weekend:
The Sheffield Utd 'offside'. Now no-one can say that it was a clear and obvious error by the referee's assistant (because it wasn't &$^"* offside by any sane definition), but technically by the wonders of VAR it could be concluded that it was. Being technically minded you could argue that the correct decision has been made because of VAR. However, NO-ONE in the stadium or watching on TV would have argued that without VAR that the goal should have been disallowed. People would have said 'that was close' or 'he was lucky there' but without VAR the goal would have been awarded and both teams would have focussed on the rest of the game from 1-1 without any burning injustice that may have served to motivate one side more than the other.
The Man City 'penalty' shout, for me, proves why I don't think it will ever really work with football. At what point in a free-flowing game do you have to stop the action to review a debatable incident? After the opposition scores a goal? After someone commits a foul where they could be dismissed?
It can be tweaked and improved in many, many ways but that last issue is the one that I think will prove to be insurmountable.
@chairboyscentral said:
VAR will not be shelved; the powers that be have invested too much in it. I'm pretty fed up with it having been very pro-VAR before, but what really gets me is how officials in other countries seem to have few problems with it. Are our officials just stupid?
I know we've been exceptionally bad at implementing Var, but it's a bit of a myth that it's a universal success in other countries. I've seen and spoken to a few German league fans who hate it as well.
On the refs being mic'd up, quite simply, it would be 1v1 after 10 minutes, with the ref and his assistants also being reprimanded for their language.
I agree it isn't going anywhere. Fans views are rarely high enough up the list and if it was scrapped then as soon as you got a howler against us anyone they would probably looking for ways to bring it back but with better rules.
I remember someone saying once that you can have common sense refereeing or consistency and not both and that's probably true as every situation is a bit different.
I don't agree that every other country gets it right, the A League in Oz was one of the early testers and the fans there complained constantly about all the issues we are seeing now.
@WildWestFC said:
Why can't refs be miked up (a separate issue) and a fourth official in the stand advise the ref if he's missed a serious incident (eg Zidane's headbutt and Maradona's handball), and leave it at that?
Refs are miked up to chat to the other officials already, var just grandstands at the moment, would be difficult to have the mic feed broadcast whilst things are running but at rest it probably would benefit the crowd, the players would have to swear and threaten the refs less but that's also a positive.
This video is a good example of how a referee and his assistants interact, including in relation to a goal versus offside decision that is reviewed by VAR:
Rugby and football have totally different relationships between players and officials.
Any dissent is instantly punished as is any swears. You don't get the abusive chants and crowd yobs in rugby either. Totally different cultures.
Any attempt to mic the ref up would last about 2mins as we'd all be disgusted by just what a foul mouthed bunch of yobs the players actually are.
Yes they "should" change, but that's not going to happen. Swearing is part of a lot of people's vocab, let alone in the "pashun" of the game.
Best ref ever for me was the "bug" eyed Pierre Luigi Collina. Always had a regular communication with the players and could stop a potential flash point with one of his stares!
@Uncle_T said:
This video is a good example of how a referee and his assistants interact, including in relation to a goal versus offside decision that is reviewed by VAR:
You need referees with some rapport with the players to referee like that though. Unfortunately I could count the amount of times I've seen that live on one hand (both playing and watching).
Sandi Toksvig wants to be a national Trevor apparently.
BTW, I’m strongly anti VAR and pro TMO.
But then I only see TMO in operation every four years.
Is she planning a full sex change? Why would she choose a name like Trevor anyway? - just change the I to a Y surely -sorted. How is this relevant to VAR anyway? So many questions. She (or is it he now?) is very good on QI though it has to be said.
As noted above, there is no reason at all why refs could not be mic'ed up (is that correct spelling) with feed turned off apart from during a VAR incident. Would be a good side benefit though if the abuse of referees was curtailed - the sin bin system in lower leagues has been a definite plus in this respect.
Can anyone explain to me why, if it has to be a clear and obvious error for VAR to become involved, they need to take nearly 3 minutes to decide if a player was offside? It's patently not clear and obvious!
Whoever is responsible for the implementation of VAR in the PL is not applying the laws of the game as written by the IFAB and should be held to account.for ruining the spectacle that is live football.
I think we might be on this one @micra. prob my fault.
@Twizz said:
Can anyone explain to me why, if it has to be a clear and obvious error for VAR to become involved, they need to take nearly 3 minutes to decide if a player was offside? It's patently not clear and obvious!
Whoever is responsible for the implementation of VAR in the PL is not applying the laws of the game as written by the IFAB and should be held to account.for ruining the spectacle that is live football.
Offside is offside. As the rules stand if any part of the body (apart from arm and hand) is ahead, you are offside. End of. Unlike many football refereeing decisions it is a matter of fact. Are you arguing with VAR implementing the rule or the rule itself?
Essentially without VAR todays method on really close offside decisions is that some bloke holding a flag essentially guesses. That until recently was the best we could do. Now we can get those decisions right. Lets pretend it was the other way around. We have had Video for years for offside but some bright spark suggests we abandon it and switch instead to some guy trying to judge split second movements with a naked eye and raising a flag. Do you think we would switch?
Just one little clue @DevC. Because posts were popping up at one minute intervals earlier, you probably weren’t able to relate the post you quoted with my post two minutes earlier. At the end of the day who gives a monkeys.
Comments
The ref needs to make the final decision.
When it's some faceless posse in a room somewhere, you'll always get the suspicion of who these people are and who they support.
That wouldn't solve anything. VAR is fundamentally terrible, whether it's the onfield ref looking at a tv replay or someone in a studio. Changing that wouldn't solve anything
Get rid of it completely. More and more people are coming to this conclusion. Hopefully we'll reach a tipping point soon and it will be gone forever
It'll never disappear now - it's in.
What has to change is the way it is applied. Maybe such a massive error in a big game will make them see that.
Why not? I would understand if the issues were only technical, or in how it's applied, but it's not.
The use of it has made more people realise that the flow of the game, the subjectivity of decisions and other non -tangible things like the emotion of celebrating a goal are more important than clinical accuracy with decisions (As plenty of us who go to games week in week out have said all along).
VAR is in serious danger of becoming one of those national mass hysteria events where we get absorbed by "whataboutitis" and look for more reasons to support our preconceived ideas rather than looking at the reality of what has really happened.
My preconceived view is that VAR is a good thing but that we can improve the way we use it - perhaps inevitably with new (to us) technology. I would for example seek to replay the action on screens at stadia and mike up referees so that the crowd can understand what is being discussed.
it may be I am wrong though. rational discussion can be difficult in these circumstances. So perhaps to try to look objectively at how VAR is impacting the premier league (good and bad) I suggest we look at say the third game each week on Saturday afternoon - no games next week, two weeks time it will be Bournemouth v Wolves. See what happens in that game.
Completely Agree. We just need managers to accept referees will occasionally make mistakes and stop blaming them for defeats so often.
You can't mic the refs up in football, it just won't work. The powers that be know this or I'm sure it would have been tried out way before Var.
Why not if you can in rugby? Technology exists if necessary to only switch the sound feed on during a VAR review I'm sure.
VAR will not be shelved; the powers that be have invested too much in it. I'm pretty fed up with it having been very pro-VAR before, but what really gets me is how officials in other countries seem to have few problems with it. Are our officials just stupid?
Our refereeing is poor at the moment - undoubtedly. Do have to remember though that our referees have had ten weeks or so of getting used to it - German referees are in their third season, it will settle down.
I think the fact a player's nose or toe (even if not interfering with play) can put him offside is making a mockery of VAR and the on-pitch officials. And as I said before I suspect VAR decisions for the big clubs will mirror past referee decisions for the big clubs especially when the decision is a big money one.
Why can't refs be miked up (a separate issue) and a fourth official in the stand advise the ref if he's missed a serious incident (eg Zidane's headbutt and Maradona's handball), and leave it at that?
For me it's not a price worth paying without a fundamental rethink.
As a means of checking for clear and obvious errors I can see its worth (for example to use the elbow to the face in the France v Wales game where the VAR/TMO saw something critical that the referee missed, it would definitely be an asset).
But taking the two main talking points of this weekend:
The Sheffield Utd 'offside'. Now no-one can say that it was a clear and obvious error by the referee's assistant (because it wasn't &$^"* offside by any sane definition), but technically by the wonders of VAR it could be concluded that it was. Being technically minded you could argue that the correct decision has been made because of VAR. However, NO-ONE in the stadium or watching on TV would have argued that without VAR that the goal should have been disallowed. People would have said 'that was close' or 'he was lucky there' but without VAR the goal would have been awarded and both teams would have focussed on the rest of the game from 1-1 without any burning injustice that may have served to motivate one side more than the other.
The Man City 'penalty' shout, for me, proves why I don't think it will ever really work with football. At what point in a free-flowing game do you have to stop the action to review a debatable incident? After the opposition scores a goal? After someone commits a foul where they could be dismissed?
It can be tweaked and improved in many, many ways but that last issue is the one that I think will prove to be insurmountable.
I know we've been exceptionally bad at implementing Var, but it's a bit of a myth that it's a universal success in other countries. I've seen and spoken to a few German league fans who hate it as well.
On the refs being mic'd up, quite simply, it would be 1v1 after 10 minutes, with the ref and his assistants also being reprimanded for their language.
I agree it isn't going anywhere. Fans views are rarely high enough up the list and if it was scrapped then as soon as you got a howler against us anyone they would probably looking for ways to bring it back but with better rules.
I remember someone saying once that you can have common sense refereeing or consistency and not both and that's probably true as every situation is a bit different.
I don't agree that every other country gets it right, the A League in Oz was one of the early testers and the fans there complained constantly about all the issues we are seeing now.
Refs are miked up to chat to the other officials already, var just grandstands at the moment, would be difficult to have the mic feed broadcast whilst things are running but at rest it probably would benefit the crowd, the players would have to swear and threaten the refs less but that's also a positive.
TV viewing figures are likely to be affected by VAR as the game is a poorer watch because of it. Then they'll have a rethink.
This video is a good example of how a referee and his assistants interact, including in relation to a goal versus offside decision that is reviewed by VAR:
Rugby and football have totally different relationships between players and officials.
Any dissent is instantly punished as is any swears. You don't get the abusive chants and crowd yobs in rugby either. Totally different cultures.
Any attempt to mic the ref up would last about 2mins as we'd all be disgusted by just what a foul mouthed bunch of yobs the players actually are.
Yes they "should" change, but that's not going to happen. Swearing is part of a lot of people's vocab, let alone in the "pashun" of the game.
Best ref ever for me was the "bug" eyed Pierre Luigi Collina. Always had a regular communication with the players and could stop a potential flash point with one of his stares!
There were a few refs that had a natural authority. Howard Webb was another noone messed with.
Some of the refs, like the guy in the Pool City game hold noone's respect as they look like a scared little kid.
At least you can put the kettle on.
Talking of Kettle, I wonder if Trevor would display more judgmental mouse if he was miced up.
You need referees with some rapport with the players to referee like that though. Unfortunately I could count the amount of times I've seen that live on one hand (both playing and watching).
Sandi Toksvig wants to be a national Trevor apparently.
BTW, I’m strongly anti VAR and pro TMO.
But then I only see TMO in operation every four years.
Is she planning a full sex change? Why would she choose a name like Trevor anyway? - just change the I to a Y surely -sorted. How is this relevant to VAR anyway? So many questions. She (or is it he now?) is very good on QI though it has to be said.
As noted above, there is no reason at all why refs could not be mic'ed up (is that correct spelling) with feed turned off apart from during a VAR incident. Would be a good side benefit though if the abuse of referees was curtailed - the sin bin system in lower leagues has been a definite plus in this respect.
Can anyone explain to me why, if it has to be a clear and obvious error for VAR to become involved, they need to take nearly 3 minutes to decide if a player was offside? It's patently not clear and obvious!
Whoever is responsible for the implementation of VAR in the PL is not applying the laws of the game as written by the IFAB and should be held to account.for ruining the spectacle that is live football.
I think we are on very different wave lengths @DevC . I’d be wasting my time trying to explain that one.
VAR, sin-bins and the ref mic'd up? Anyone else feel the excitement of live sport being sucked out of football...all we'll have left is limbs.
I think we might be on this one @micra. prob my fault.
Offside is offside. As the rules stand if any part of the body (apart from arm and hand) is ahead, you are offside. End of. Unlike many football refereeing decisions it is a matter of fact. Are you arguing with VAR implementing the rule or the rule itself?
Essentially without VAR todays method on really close offside decisions is that some bloke holding a flag essentially guesses. That until recently was the best we could do. Now we can get those decisions right. Lets pretend it was the other way around. We have had Video for years for offside but some bright spark suggests we abandon it and switch instead to some guy trying to judge split second movements with a naked eye and raising a flag. Do you think we would switch?
Just one little clue @DevC. Because posts were popping up at one minute intervals earlier, you probably weren’t able to relate the post you quoted with my post two minutes earlier. At the end of the day who gives a monkeys.