Thank you Vital, excellent! I felt that Swindon were reasonably fair in their comments and indeed a little unlucky to go home with nothing. The comments from Exiled Bob and Abrahammer pretty much sum things up. In truth, we have the best team spirit (and dressing room) in the EFL at the moment and nothing is impossible. GA is the Messiah of League 2!
Fair comments. Little deluded to think ref didn't give them free kicks for fouls by Akinfenwa..he had just as much fouls against him that were not given.
@Aylesburyblue said:
Fair comments. Little deluded to think ref didn't give them free kicks for fouls by Akinfenwa..he had just as much fouls against him that were not given.
Agreed - for once, we had a ref that kept up fairly well with play, however despite Bayo having his shirt yanked at least 3 times right in front of him, his whistle seemed to lack much peep...
@mooneyman said:
I don't normally stand up for refs, but it must be particularly difficult to officiate regarding challenges on or by Bayo.
Sorry don't see that. If you have no understanding of football/contact sport or have never played it, then sure it would be difficult. Anybody who has played football from Sunday morning pub leagues to professional level must be aware of the difference between superior strength and a foul, surely?
@EwanHoosaami said:
Sorry don't see that. If you have no understanding of football/contact sport or have never played it, then sure it would be difficult. Anybody who has played football from Sunday morning pub leagues to professional level must be aware of the difference between superior strength and a foul, surely?
Given that complaints about the refereeing of Bayo seems to come up most weeks from both sets of supporters with different referees, there are surely only three explanations (or a combination of more than one)
a) that referring Bayo is difficult
b) that refs general referee Bayo broadly correctly
c) that supporters of Wycombe who think that Bayo does not get enough fouls for and too many against and supporters of the opposition who think Bayo gets too many fouls and too few against both understand more about the rules of football than the neutral professional doing the job.
This thread has taken a turn in those last two posts. May as well close it down now but I'd still like to hear from you @mooneyman . Genuinely interested in why you think refs can be given a break with Bayo despite @DevC giving us the only three explanations. I think that is making the debate much more simplistic than I think it is. I give you more credit too.
@rmjlondon said:
I thought Andy Madley was excellent and you an see he is a full time ref as he was up with play all of the time.
I noticed that he kept up with play well too - lazy refereeing is a particular gripe of mine.
I found him on the whole lenient, which worked both for and against us. Overall, refreshing though.
I thought the ref was pretty good. Linos as usual a bit slow. As for Bayo...I am at the back of the beechdean and wear glasses and I can see when two players are holding onto the shirt of a very big man...
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
This thread has taken a turn in those last two posts. May as well close it down now but I'd still like to hear from you mooneyman . Genuinely interested in why you think refs can be given a break with Bayo despite DevC giving us the only three explanations. I think that is making the debate much more simplistic than I think it is. I give you more credit too.
I did not state that we should give referees a break so don't put words in my mouth.
What I did say was that in my view it is DIFFICULT for referees to judge who fouls who, particularly in a crowded penalty area where Bayo is involved. Assistant referees generally give very little help. Most of the defenders just bounce off Bayo because of his extraordinary strength and end up onbyge ground.
Look at all the shirt pulling in penalty areas nowadays, particularly in the Premier League, even supposedly top referees show inconsistency in making decisions. I am sure you and I would make different decisions on penalty awards for challenges in the area.
Thanks for the answer @mooneyman . Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Just thought that was what you were implying.
Still not sure why you think Bayo is different to any other player apart from mentioning his strength. What makes a clash between him and any League Two centre half different to any other target man? What is he doing that makes it more difficult for referees?
I actually agree with you that referees do seem to find it more difficult but I'm at a loss to know why. Most weeks refs give different decisions for other strikers compared to him. It seems ok for defenders to get more physical or grab more shirt. I don't watch Premier League football much so have no idea if more shirts get pulled there but based on last night alone Bayo's shirt was being tugged in almost every challenge.
I just think he gets refereed differently to all other strikers and I don't see why that would be based on his play.
I'm a big Bayo fan but he's no more of a saint than anyone else and quite often he fouls defenders when jumping for a ball; all strikers do, don't they? Where I think refs have a problem is that with his weight and strength, he can have an effect on defenders with a fair challenge (and without using his arms) which most forwards can only get with a push. And I would wager that most refs react to the consequence of the action rather than the action itself, and more often than not, with "ordinary" players, they're safe to do so. They see a defender fall to the ground following contact with a forward which looks like a push and most often, it is a push. They don't see the push but it was there, it had to be. The trouble is, with Bayo, it doesn't have to be, players just bounce off him as if they'd been pushed.
I'm not defending refs, it would be far better if they got it right all the time, and I get really fed up when they don't give obvious fouls on him, but I can understand a bit why they often call a foul when he hasn't committed one.
It seems to me that Bayo's uncommon strength makes a big difference to what is a difficult area to referee already because of the way fouls are adjudicated.
This is because he relies to such a great degree on his strength for the efficacy of his play and because it has become customary to allow for some amount of physicality that is somewhere beyond what the rules strictly allow. The pushing and pulling that typically goes on in a contest for the ball is magnified when Bayo is involved. When he does it - and he does it a lot - he does it extremely effectively and, because the consequences of his physical interventions are greater, somewhat more obviously than in the average case. This may explain why he is penalised at a much higher than average rate. Conversely, in order to have the desired effect, those defending him have to do much more than they would do normally in order to effect the desired disruption on his play that they can typically achieve more easily. Thus, you see mantraps being dug, grappling hooks being thrown and shirts being practically ripped off. The average attacker deals with these indignities by flagging them to the referee by falling over. Bayo is the worst faller-over in the history of modern professional football: he deals with it by giving as good as he gets. He is an honest, manly cheat because his physicality allows it where others take a more demonstrative approach because theirs does not.
When Bayo is involved, the referee is getting, I think, a rather different picture to the one he is used to getting in the typical physical contest between players and thus has to interpret what he sees with relatively little precedent on which to base his judgements. I tend to agree that Bayo is largely as much sinned against as sinner. At the same time, he is certainly guilty of a great deal of illegal physicality. Dealing with last night, having looked at the disallowed goal on the highlights, I notice that he had his arm across the defender to his inside and that that defender ended up on his backside as the ball came across. I didn't see this last night. It seems fair for the referee to interpret that as illegal play. The sense of injustice comes from knowing that few, if any, attackers would not have sought to gain some space by doing something similar in the same circumstances. The "problem" for Bayo is that they would not have been so effective and thus they might have gained the desired amount of space without being noticed by the referee.
This might not seem fair but, if the game is resolved to allow a measure of physicality in such circumstances, it seems we have to accept that the referees are going to make some number of their judgements based on outcomes rather than actions. This is why players fall over a lot (and not just when playing against Bayo) and also, because the impact of illegalities committed against him are much less obvious, why Bayo wins relatively few free kicks himself, .
I think that @Wig_and_Pen has it spot on. Bloody frustrating when the refs don't give the obvious fouls against Bayo. Yes Bayo does foul, no more than any other forward, but I would wager that he gets penalised more than others, but is rarely afforded the same when fouled against.
I genuinely feel that the majority of referees don't understand that because Bayo is a "breeze block wall on legs" it's not always a foul when opposition players bounce off him. If I charged into a static Bayo, I'm certain I would collapse in a heap, so would I expect to be awarded a free kick? Actually I would expect to end up in A&E @ Stoke Mandeville.
However often Bayo does get called up for fouls, it's still infinitely less frustrating than when we had someone like Matt Harrold up front who seemed to give a huge amount away.
I agree with HCblue. Bayo is basically a victim of his own physique and the tendency of referees to make preconceived assumptions about certain players. It must be so frustrating for him and he does well to keep that frustration under control. Perhaps he should change his name and then he might get fairer treatment from referees!
@glasshalffull said:
I agree with HCblue. Bayo is basically a victim of his own physique and the tendency of referees to make preconceived assumptions about certain players. It must be so frustrating for him and he does well to keep that frustration under control. Perhaps he should change his name and then he might get fairer treatment from referees!
He does indeed do well to remain in control. That said, it is very apparent that a lot of teams just run out of gas defending him. I’m certain he plays on this - he projects an message that they will tire before he does and when that happens he will inevitably profit. Unbreakable, immovable, unstoppable. Love him.
I should say my post was not intended as a defence of Bayo and more as an observation about the unique challenges his style of play presents to referees. To reiterate, I don't necessarily think he is unfairly treated - he gives as good as he gets - though I could go as far as saying that defenders get away with doing things to him that they wouldn't with another player.
Like Manboobs, his value to us seems inestimable at the moment and I'm losing count of the number of games that he keeps us in in the last quarter.
I’m confused by your desire to water down your original and well constructed post. Even this post seems somewhat contradictory, i.e. ‘I don’t think he is unfairly treated’ followed by ‘defenders get away with doing things to him they wouldn’t with any other player’.
You should be defending him because he is undoubtedly unfairly treated.
Well that last sentence is your opinion but I'm not sure that you can tell me what mine should be because it seems to vary from yours.
To re-reiterate, the primary purpose of my original was to comment on the referee's perspective in reply to earlier posts, not to make a case that Bayo was necessarily unfairly treated even though, on balance, I think he is a bit. If there was a main thrust, it was that the waters are muddied by the fact that a measure of illegal physicality is accepted as the norm, a bit like in basketball. Referees (in both sports) develop a set of unofficial standards to judge what to allow but that standard is very hard to apply with a player of Bayo's unusual characteristics.
Comments
Thank you Vital, excellent! I felt that Swindon were reasonably fair in their comments and indeed a little unlucky to go home with nothing. The comments from Exiled Bob and Abrahammer pretty much sum things up. In truth, we have the best team spirit (and dressing room) in the EFL at the moment and nothing is impossible. GA is the Messiah of League 2!
Fair comments. Little deluded to think ref didn't give them free kicks for fouls by Akinfenwa..he had just as much fouls against him that were not given.
Agreed - for once, we had a ref that kept up fairly well with play, however despite Bayo having his shirt yanked at least 3 times right in front of him, his whistle seemed to lack much peep...
I don't normally stand up for refs, but it must be particularly difficult to officiate regarding challenges on or by Bayo.
Why @mooneyman ?
Sorry don't see that. If you have no understanding of football/contact sport or have never played it, then sure it would be difficult. Anybody who has played football from Sunday morning pub leagues to professional level must be aware of the difference between superior strength and a foul, surely?
How many refs have played professional football?
How many have played Sunday league? You must be deliberately skirting the point. I will concede that the answer to your question is probably zero.
Come on @mooneyman . Tell us why you are giving refs a break when refereeing one player against everyone else in football?
Given that complaints about the refereeing of Bayo seems to come up most weeks from both sets of supporters with different referees, there are surely only three explanations (or a combination of more than one)
a) that referring Bayo is difficult
b) that refs general referee Bayo broadly correctly
c) that supporters of Wycombe who think that Bayo does not get enough fouls for and too many against and supporters of the opposition who think Bayo gets too many fouls and too few against both understand more about the rules of football than the neutral professional doing the job.
a) and b) seem more likely than c)....
I thought Andy Madley was excellent and you an see he is a full time ref as he was up with play all of the time.
This thread has taken a turn in those last two posts. May as well close it down now but I'd still like to hear from you @mooneyman . Genuinely interested in why you think refs can be given a break with Bayo despite @DevC giving us the only three explanations. I think that is making the debate much more simplistic than I think it is. I give you more credit too.
he doesn't get as hard a time for us as he did when he was at AFC
I noticed that he kept up with play well too - lazy refereeing is a particular gripe of mine.
I found him on the whole lenient, which worked both for and against us. Overall, refreshing though.
he kept the game flowing and didn't keep blasting the whistle for every little niggle, which suited us on the whole.
I thought the ref was pretty good. Linos as usual a bit slow. As for Bayo...I am at the back of the beechdean and wear glasses and I can see when two players are holding onto the shirt of a very big man...
I did not state that we should give referees a break so don't put words in my mouth.
What I did say was that in my view it is DIFFICULT for referees to judge who fouls who, particularly in a crowded penalty area where Bayo is involved. Assistant referees generally give very little help. Most of the defenders just bounce off Bayo because of his extraordinary strength and end up onbyge ground.
Look at all the shirt pulling in penalty areas nowadays, particularly in the Premier League, even supposedly top referees show inconsistency in making decisions. I am sure you and I would make different decisions on penalty awards for challenges in the area.
Thanks for the answer @mooneyman . Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Just thought that was what you were implying.
Still not sure why you think Bayo is different to any other player apart from mentioning his strength. What makes a clash between him and any League Two centre half different to any other target man? What is he doing that makes it more difficult for referees?
I actually agree with you that referees do seem to find it more difficult but I'm at a loss to know why. Most weeks refs give different decisions for other strikers compared to him. It seems ok for defenders to get more physical or grab more shirt. I don't watch Premier League football much so have no idea if more shirts get pulled there but based on last night alone Bayo's shirt was being tugged in almost every challenge.
I just think he gets refereed differently to all other strikers and I don't see why that would be based on his play.
I'm a big Bayo fan but he's no more of a saint than anyone else and quite often he fouls defenders when jumping for a ball; all strikers do, don't they? Where I think refs have a problem is that with his weight and strength, he can have an effect on defenders with a fair challenge (and without using his arms) which most forwards can only get with a push. And I would wager that most refs react to the consequence of the action rather than the action itself, and more often than not, with "ordinary" players, they're safe to do so. They see a defender fall to the ground following contact with a forward which looks like a push and most often, it is a push. They don't see the push but it was there, it had to be. The trouble is, with Bayo, it doesn't have to be, players just bounce off him as if they'd been pushed.
I'm not defending refs, it would be far better if they got it right all the time, and I get really fed up when they don't give obvious fouls on him, but I can understand a bit why they often call a foul when he hasn't committed one.
It seems to me that Bayo's uncommon strength makes a big difference to what is a difficult area to referee already because of the way fouls are adjudicated.
This is because he relies to such a great degree on his strength for the efficacy of his play and because it has become customary to allow for some amount of physicality that is somewhere beyond what the rules strictly allow. The pushing and pulling that typically goes on in a contest for the ball is magnified when Bayo is involved. When he does it - and he does it a lot - he does it extremely effectively and, because the consequences of his physical interventions are greater, somewhat more obviously than in the average case. This may explain why he is penalised at a much higher than average rate. Conversely, in order to have the desired effect, those defending him have to do much more than they would do normally in order to effect the desired disruption on his play that they can typically achieve more easily. Thus, you see mantraps being dug, grappling hooks being thrown and shirts being practically ripped off. The average attacker deals with these indignities by flagging them to the referee by falling over. Bayo is the worst faller-over in the history of modern professional football: he deals with it by giving as good as he gets. He is an honest, manly cheat because his physicality allows it where others take a more demonstrative approach because theirs does not.
When Bayo is involved, the referee is getting, I think, a rather different picture to the one he is used to getting in the typical physical contest between players and thus has to interpret what he sees with relatively little precedent on which to base his judgements. I tend to agree that Bayo is largely as much sinned against as sinner. At the same time, he is certainly guilty of a great deal of illegal physicality. Dealing with last night, having looked at the disallowed goal on the highlights, I notice that he had his arm across the defender to his inside and that that defender ended up on his backside as the ball came across. I didn't see this last night. It seems fair for the referee to interpret that as illegal play. The sense of injustice comes from knowing that few, if any, attackers would not have sought to gain some space by doing something similar in the same circumstances. The "problem" for Bayo is that they would not have been so effective and thus they might have gained the desired amount of space without being noticed by the referee.
This might not seem fair but, if the game is resolved to allow a measure of physicality in such circumstances, it seems we have to accept that the referees are going to make some number of their judgements based on outcomes rather than actions. This is why players fall over a lot (and not just when playing against Bayo) and also, because the impact of illegalities committed against him are much less obvious, why Bayo wins relatively few free kicks himself, .
What an informative, well constructed and interesting post @HCblue , thank you.
I think that @Wig_and_Pen has it spot on. Bloody frustrating when the refs don't give the obvious fouls against Bayo. Yes Bayo does foul, no more than any other forward, but I would wager that he gets penalised more than others, but is rarely afforded the same when fouled against.
I genuinely feel that the majority of referees don't understand that because Bayo is a "breeze block wall on legs" it's not always a foul when opposition players bounce off him. If I charged into a static Bayo, I'm certain I would collapse in a heap, so would I expect to be awarded a free kick? Actually I would expect to end up in A&E @ Stoke Mandeville.
You're welcome, @ValleyWanderer. It's no more than a theory, of course!
However often Bayo does get called up for fouls, it's still infinitely less frustrating than when we had someone like Matt Harrold up front who seemed to give a huge amount away.
I agree with HCblue. Bayo is basically a victim of his own physique and the tendency of referees to make preconceived assumptions about certain players. It must be so frustrating for him and he does well to keep that frustration under control. Perhaps he should change his name and then he might get fairer treatment from referees!
He does indeed do well to remain in control. That said, it is very apparent that a lot of teams just run out of gas defending him. I’m certain he plays on this - he projects an message that they will tire before he does and when that happens he will inevitably profit. Unbreakable, immovable, unstoppable. Love him.
Match day vlog from yesterday
I should say my post was not intended as a defence of Bayo and more as an observation about the unique challenges his style of play presents to referees. To reiterate, I don't necessarily think he is unfairly treated - he gives as good as he gets - though I could go as far as saying that defenders get away with doing things to him that they wouldn't with another player.
Like Manboobs, his value to us seems inestimable at the moment and I'm losing count of the number of games that he keeps us in in the last quarter.
I’m confused by your desire to water down your original and well constructed post. Even this post seems somewhat contradictory, i.e. ‘I don’t think he is unfairly treated’ followed by ‘defenders get away with doing things to him they wouldn’t with any other player’.
You should be defending him because he is undoubtedly unfairly treated.
Well that last sentence is your opinion but I'm not sure that you can tell me what mine should be because it seems to vary from yours.
To re-reiterate, the primary purpose of my original was to comment on the referee's perspective in reply to earlier posts, not to make a case that Bayo was necessarily unfairly treated even though, on balance, I think he is a bit. If there was a main thrust, it was that the waters are muddied by the fact that a measure of illegal physicality is accepted as the norm, a bit like in basketball. Referees (in both sports) develop a set of unofficial standards to judge what to allow but that standard is very hard to apply with a player of Bayo's unusual characteristics.