Holding the back in the corner isn't cheating, I don't think anyone has suggested that it is. The point about that is should we be doing it for 15 minutes against the shittest team we have played all season. Each to his/her own on that one I suppose.
Diving is though. And I suppose that's why people get upset when they see our longest serving player doing it.
And when Hayes did that theatrical handing over of the captain's armband I was embarrassed, and I wish he'd been booked.
As for saying that time wasting is bad for football but you don't mind Wycombe doing it. Well, words fail me
Brilliant. Using that philosophy you could justify pretty much anything. If you believe something to be wrong, then don't do it regardless of who else is
Personally I find the timewasting absolutely embarrassing. eric plant has called out a few of the players for sad examples, well let's face it they're only doing what they've been told.
I just find it to be completely anti-football in spirit. It's like a bunch of lawyers read the rule book, said, "well technically we can get away with this, there's nothing to stop us", and everything we think we can get away with, we try it.
Someone said, well we're in the playoffs, we do what we need to do, would you rather we were midtable but playing fair? Yes. Yes I would.
I don't have anything against the odd goal kick timewaste or running the ball into the corner - things that literally every team does. It's the shambolic feigned injuries and whining to the ref that get my goat the most. It's just cynical and I think we're better than that.
Good example. He's telling porkies there by the way. I was right behind that goal and he punched it in as deliberately as you could possibly imagine
I suppose I could argue that there's a difference between something done spontaneously in the heat of the moment and something like that armband trick which had clearly been thought through beforehand. Incidentally, is it just coincidence that the player he hands it into plays left back and so is furthest from the bench in the second half most weeks?
@aloysius , I often wonder if you're on the windup with some of your comments. The one suggesting O Nien was completely faking it after getting a smash in the nose takes the biscuit!
@clifty04 , not to go over that Wembley heart break again, but having started getting the ball in the corner with tonnes of time left, was it about 15-20mins(?), it still seems incredible now that Bloomy tried such an ill advised run with the ball, rather than booting it, handballing it, or just anything except what he did.
That's the trouble about all this time wasting cobblers. If, just after the "armband stunt", Mansfield had managed a shot on target, and it had gone in, then we should have wanted all that wasted time back again. (And I cannot even hazard a guess at the number of people around me who bellow "get on with it" when the opposition are messing about over free kicks, throw-ins, substitutions, etc., yet say nothing when we are doing it.)
My feeling is that we should play it fair (as GKK says) and try to get that second goal - and give my squeaky old bum a bloody rest.
@eric_plant said:
I suppose I could argue that there's a difference between something done spontaneously in the heat of the moment and something like that armband trick which had clearly been thought through beforehand. Incidentally, is it just coincidence that the player he hands it into plays left back and so is furthest from the bench in the second half most weeks?
I think there are another few arguments too, aside from the moral one. Time wasting runs the risk of actively putting off casual fans from coming back in a way that cheating in the heat of the moment does not.
And there the effectiveness of it is doubtful too. Ainsworth scored a goal from the handball which is a big swing - but time wasting only gets you a tiny advantage at best.
I would love to see 'game management' clamped down on as it isn't great to watch, whichever team is doing it.
But, having said all that, I can't say I'd rather Wycombe didn't do it if one of the potential consequences is missing out on the playoffs.
I don't think I've ever seen a team make as much fuss at the armband switch as we do. To trot all the way over to left back, and take 20secs carefully putting it on JJ's arm is incredible!
Refs can't be that dumb though, and will simply add more time on, often book Hayes, and get the opposition riled up.
@Malone nope, I'm not a wind up kinda guy. I just see the match very differently from you. I think I've posted enough comments of slavish devotion to Luke O'Nien over the season; having been mere meters away from his 'foul' and neither seeing contact nor blood - on face, shirt, sponge or padding - I merely call it as I see it. If I missed it, fair enough, but I wasn't miles away and I was looking.
On the faking and time-wasting in general, I'm actually quite agnostic. It serves a purpose and adds to the jollity of the occasion, occasionally. My issues with the team are much more with style of play and personnel, but this isn't the thread for that.
However, since we're talking analogies, I'll throw in one of my own. Wycombe's time-wasting is a bit like one particular bank inventing new forms of finance brokerage - say, collaterised debt obligations on sub prime mortgages. They're not breaking the rules, merely stretching them to breaking point and not caring about the individual mortgage holder who'll suffer in the process without any say about the tactics of the banks they hold their mortgage with. The banks are not playing fairly but they are making huge profits for themselves and soon all the other banks are joining in, pushing each other to stretch the rules even further. In the end though the whole thing is taken too far and collapses, and banking as we know it falls apart, with spectators baying for blood. I'll end the analogy here as we all know what happens next - the banks ignore the regulator trying to clear things up and, after a few months, start screwing the system once again. But you get my point!
@Cyclops said:
Clearly, corner flag theory is within the laws of the game. Do we like it; is it good for football, etc... Mmm - not for me, I'm afraid.
Whilst I am slightly ashamed of our excessive time-wasting/gamesmanship I rather quite like the pantomime of 'corner flag theory" to run down the clock. There's usually good entertainment (whoever is doing it) as players get frustrated or cock it up with the fans on the receiving end getting increasingly wound up but then the pressure valve release when we/they do get the ball back does add to the excitement.
Should never* be allowed before the 85th minute though.
*Exceptions here are: Bristol Rovers, Oxford and Col U for obvious wind up value
I think your analogy is a little bit of a stretch @aloysius but I agree that there was (is) a failure in bank regulation, and there is a failure from those responsible to crack down on time wasting.
Aloysius your analogy is a little bit business-like for me. I prefer to liken it to a wife/husband/partner who has become a little obsessed with some quack fad. You grit your teeth, nod now and then to offer support but hope she/he will soon get tired of it and return to normal. (And I'll end here as we all know where this analogy could end up...)
The odd thing to me is that we almost seem to pick and choose in which match we waste time. For the more regular fans than me, would that be a fair comment? In the games I've attended, our time wasting really hasn't been that evident, that said I've only seen us win 3, Oxford (where apart from a protracted Hayes substitution, I thought it was pretty open in the closing stages with chances at both ends), Crawley (certainly no time wasting in this match, in fact we pushed hard for a 2nd goal that we eventually scored in the last minute) & Stevenage (lengthy goal celebration, but nothing untoward other than that). In fact in terms of game management, Plymouth & Luton by far exceeded anything we've done in that department!
Have I just attended the wrong (or right!) matches? It certainly saddens me to read about these tactics, but in the evidence of what I've seen myself, perhaps our reputation is somewhat exagarrated? Could it be that on Friday, the players were told to do it in order to save energy for the Monday match?
@wingnut, I've thought that too. But maybe it's as much about riling the opposition and winding them up as anything. I think O'Nien is actually quite a wind-up merchant on the pitch, for all the cheeky grins.
I found the armband change and the corner thing a bit embarassing, especially as the terrace began that lovely time-wasting song to accompany it...and I must admit when LON went down clutching his face after a minor (if anything) bit of contact right in front of the Beechdean I cringed. I also saw no blood despite the nose packing, so I suppose the jury is out. I get the feeling he is a wind-up merchant on the pitch which is why opposition players get out of their tree when he wins a free-kick. Be nice if players were bought on to try and express themseves and score another goal, rather than just run down the clock, but I can see both sides of the argument I suppose. Have to say, until Harriman's great goal, it had 0 - 0 all over despite the stags being awful. Bright side...both of the Selle(a)rs looked decent when they came on!
@Wendoverman said:
....and I must admit when LON went down clutching his face after a minor (if anything) bit of contact right in front of the Beechdean I cringed. I also saw no blood despite the nose packing, so I suppose the jury is out. I get the feeling he is a wind-up merchant on the pitch which is why opposition players get out of their tree when he wins a free-kick.
I was only expressing an opinion from what I saw Mooney. If Luke has a broken nose then I would apologise to him but of course mostly to you for any offence given.
Comments
Clearly, corner flag theory is within the laws of the game. Do we like it; is it good for football, etc... Mmm - not for me, I'm afraid.
Absolutely @mooneyman.
Holding the back in the corner isn't cheating, I don't think anyone has suggested that it is. The point about that is should we be doing it for 15 minutes against the shittest team we have played all season. Each to his/her own on that one I suppose.
Diving is though. And I suppose that's why people get upset when they see our longest serving player doing it.
And when Hayes did that theatrical handing over of the captain's armband I was embarrassed, and I wish he'd been booked.
As for saying that time wasting is bad for football but you don't mind Wycombe doing it. Well, words fail me
Sometimes you have to make pragmatic decisions, that's life. I don't like agent's fees, but if we need to pay them to sign players then do it.
Brilliant. Using that philosophy you could justify pretty much anything. If you believe something to be wrong, then don't do it regardless of who else is
That's simply not true.
Depends entirely on the circumstances. I'm sure we can all think of situations where this doesn't apply.
http://m.bucksfreepress.co.uk/sport/5198676.Ainsworth_owns_up_to_hand_ball_goal/
is one example. Should Ainsworth have told the ref what happened at the time? That would have been the right thing to do.
Personally I find the timewasting absolutely embarrassing. eric plant has called out a few of the players for sad examples, well let's face it they're only doing what they've been told.
I just find it to be completely anti-football in spirit. It's like a bunch of lawyers read the rule book, said, "well technically we can get away with this, there's nothing to stop us", and everything we think we can get away with, we try it.
Someone said, well we're in the playoffs, we do what we need to do, would you rather we were midtable but playing fair? Yes. Yes I would.
I don't have anything against the odd goal kick timewaste or running the ball into the corner - things that literally every team does. It's the shambolic feigned injuries and whining to the ref that get my goat the most. It's just cynical and I think we're better than that.
Wow. That makes a change from honk.
Good example. He's telling porkies there by the way. I was right behind that goal and he punched it in as deliberately as you could possibly imagine
I suppose I could argue that there's a difference between something done spontaneously in the heat of the moment and something like that armband trick which had clearly been thought through beforehand. Incidentally, is it just coincidence that the player he hands it into plays left back and so is furthest from the bench in the second half most weeks?
@aloysius , I often wonder if you're on the windup with some of your comments. The one suggesting O Nien was completely faking it after getting a smash in the nose takes the biscuit!
@clifty04 , not to go over that Wembley heart break again, but having started getting the ball in the corner with tonnes of time left, was it about 15-20mins(?), it still seems incredible now that Bloomy tried such an ill advised run with the ball, rather than booting it, handballing it, or just anything except what he did.
Incredible.
That's the trouble about all this time wasting cobblers. If, just after the "armband stunt", Mansfield had managed a shot on target, and it had gone in, then we should have wanted all that wasted time back again. (And I cannot even hazard a guess at the number of people around me who bellow "get on with it" when the opposition are messing about over free kicks, throw-ins, substitutions, etc., yet say nothing when we are doing it.)
My feeling is that we should play it fair (as GKK says) and try to get that second goal - and give my squeaky old bum a bloody rest.
I think there are another few arguments too, aside from the moral one. Time wasting runs the risk of actively putting off casual fans from coming back in a way that cheating in the heat of the moment does not.
And there the effectiveness of it is doubtful too. Ainsworth scored a goal from the handball which is a big swing - but time wasting only gets you a tiny advantage at best.
I would love to see 'game management' clamped down on as it isn't great to watch, whichever team is doing it.
But, having said all that, I can't say I'd rather Wycombe didn't do it if one of the potential consequences is missing out on the playoffs.
I don't think I've ever seen a team make as much fuss at the armband switch as we do. To trot all the way over to left back, and take 20secs carefully putting it on JJ's arm is incredible!
Refs can't be that dumb though, and will simply add more time on, often book Hayes, and get the opposition riled up.
@Malone nope, I'm not a wind up kinda guy. I just see the match very differently from you. I think I've posted enough comments of slavish devotion to Luke O'Nien over the season; having been mere meters away from his 'foul' and neither seeing contact nor blood - on face, shirt, sponge or padding - I merely call it as I see it. If I missed it, fair enough, but I wasn't miles away and I was looking.
On the faking and time-wasting in general, I'm actually quite agnostic. It serves a purpose and adds to the jollity of the occasion, occasionally. My issues with the team are much more with style of play and personnel, but this isn't the thread for that.
However, since we're talking analogies, I'll throw in one of my own. Wycombe's time-wasting is a bit like one particular bank inventing new forms of finance brokerage - say, collaterised debt obligations on sub prime mortgages. They're not breaking the rules, merely stretching them to breaking point and not caring about the individual mortgage holder who'll suffer in the process without any say about the tactics of the banks they hold their mortgage with. The banks are not playing fairly but they are making huge profits for themselves and soon all the other banks are joining in, pushing each other to stretch the rules even further. In the end though the whole thing is taken too far and collapses, and banking as we know it falls apart, with spectators baying for blood. I'll end the analogy here as we all know what happens next - the banks ignore the regulator trying to clear things up and, after a few months, start screwing the system once again. But you get my point!
Whilst I am slightly ashamed of our excessive time-wasting/gamesmanship I rather quite like the pantomime of 'corner flag theory" to run down the clock. There's usually good entertainment (whoever is doing it) as players get frustrated or cock it up with the fans on the receiving end getting increasingly wound up but then the pressure valve release when we/they do get the ball back does add to the excitement.
Should never* be allowed before the 85th minute though.
*Exceptions here are: Bristol Rovers, Oxford and Col U for obvious wind up value
I think your analogy is a little bit of a stretch @aloysius but I agree that there was (is) a failure in bank regulation, and there is a failure from those responsible to crack down on time wasting.
Aloysius your analogy is a little bit business-like for me. I prefer to liken it to a wife/husband/partner who has become a little obsessed with some quack fad. You grit your teeth, nod now and then to offer support but hope she/he will soon get tired of it and return to normal. (And I'll end here as we all know where this analogy could end up...)
I hope Mrs Bookertease doesn't read this forum.
The odd thing to me is that we almost seem to pick and choose in which match we waste time. For the more regular fans than me, would that be a fair comment? In the games I've attended, our time wasting really hasn't been that evident, that said I've only seen us win 3, Oxford (where apart from a protracted Hayes substitution, I thought it was pretty open in the closing stages with chances at both ends), Crawley (certainly no time wasting in this match, in fact we pushed hard for a 2nd goal that we eventually scored in the last minute) & Stevenage (lengthy goal celebration, but nothing untoward other than that). In fact in terms of game management, Plymouth & Luton by far exceeded anything we've done in that department!
Have I just attended the wrong (or right!) matches? It certainly saddens me to read about these tactics, but in the evidence of what I've seen myself, perhaps our reputation is somewhat exagarrated? Could it be that on Friday, the players were told to do it in order to save energy for the Monday match?
It always seems to me that 3 minutes wasted equals 5 minutes added on, so how do you gain?
@wingnut, I've thought that too. But maybe it's as much about riling the opposition and winding them up as anything. I think O'Nien is actually quite a wind-up merchant on the pitch, for all the cheeky grins.
I found the armband change and the corner thing a bit embarassing, especially as the terrace began that lovely time-wasting song to accompany it...and I must admit when LON went down clutching his face after a minor (if anything) bit of contact right in front of the Beechdean I cringed. I also saw no blood despite the nose packing, so I suppose the jury is out. I get the feeling he is a wind-up merchant on the pitch which is why opposition players get out of their tree when he wins a free-kick. Be nice if players were bought on to try and express themseves and score another goal, rather than just run down the clock, but I can see both sides of the argument I suppose. Have to say, until Harriman's great goal, it had 0 - 0 all over despite the stags being awful. Bright side...both of the Selle(a)rs looked decent when they came on!
I believe he has a broken nose.
No reason to go down clutching his face merely because of a broken nose. He needs to man up as Wendoverman would have just grin and bear it!
Wow mooneyman that's harsh .
I was only expressing an opinion from what I saw Mooney. If Luke has a broken nose then I would apologise to him but of course mostly to you for any offence given.