Welcome to the realities of supporter-owned football. I'm afraid a good season for the likes of us, Wimbledon, Exeter is pleasant stasis - one neither threatened by relegation or promotion (yes indeed, as outlined above, promotion is quite a threat).
Here's the thing. I can accept stasis if the football is good. So more matches like last Saturday's please, less hit and hope. A gentle flirt with the play-offs might ensue but the club will be able to nip that in the bud through clever, if subtle, management - not releasing any loan monies for a Saunders-esque player to really push us on, for example.
However if the football is bad then us peasants will revolt. Not that we'll be able to do much other than gripe on a football message board - most of us are season ticket holders and will continue to come no matter what. But at least we can chant that the team are time-wasters and hold the club to account through fans' forums. Kinda. Anyone ask a difficult question last night? (Yes, I know I could've but like SurreyWanderer, a four-hour trip without the prospect of any football is more than I'm willing to give.)
Anyway, I like the club's spin. Let's start a youth development programme and hint it's a return to a youth team. When in reality it's going to be Gareth Ainsworth signing three or four extra Ryan Sellers from better teams' development squads to sit on the bench. And it's only happening because of the change of loan rules. However if it's given a nice name people might think we're getting a youth team back - and they might cough up to fund the new player-coach Ainsworth has been pleading for (Stevie Craig? Paul Hayes?)
Such are the realities of supporter-owned football. I know I sound a little harsh in this post but I'm genuinely impressed by how Howard is choosing to run the club at the moment. I just think it's a shame to be swimming against the tide so much here. I'd happily take the Jordanian money that's about to pour into Bristol Rovers. And watch a club actively seek success.
Indeed. I don;t believe any manager or squad would purposely throw a chance at promotion, but I can see that League One could be a financial stretch. If we do get up...STAYING will be the only aim I expect with anything else a bonus!
@DevonBlue You are dead right that people should go but that is not always possible is it. The trouble for me is that when I do go I get a very different impression of the meeting from reading about it on forums. Not being able to make last night left me with some pretty poor fair so your post is much appreciated. It fits far more with my impression from other meetings to be honest.
MBS
I think we may need to agree to differ on continuing to blame Hayes for todays problems. For me it is the easy answer. If we continue to do that rather than face up to the reality that todays issues are simply that today we are struggling to get enough cash in to meet the cash going out, then we risk failing to address today's real issues.
You are right that any value of the ground is in the land value. It cant realistically be used for housing (which is where the high land values are). I am not really up to date with South East land values but I suspect that land for industrial use at best with planning issues and significant costs of clearance ain't going to be worth he amounts.
Further if the only way of realising that value assuming we want to stay as a functioning football club is to borrow against its value (either directly or as a sale and lease back) is highly problematic as well. Any investor has to look at the worst case of what happens if WWFC cant repay the loan or make the rent payments. As a struggling football club, our covenant ( the likelihood of default happening) is very weak. If we couldn't meet the costs the lendor/freeholder then has the problem of pretty undesirable land plus the PR nightmare of being the ogre trying to evict the towns football club. Frankly why would you advance money commercially just to give yourself the strong probability of a headache before too long.
Forget the stadium as a saviour to cash issues, it wont be. The only practical value it may have is a way of paying debts if the football club died, at which stage few will care much about the debts.
The football club has to find a way of balancing cash in from attendances /tv money/commercial sponsorship/transfer fees (although these are uncertain) less trading costs plus subsidy either provided by supporters "investment" or worst case a new sugar daddy. If it cant find a way of doing so, it will not survive.
Would people on here prefer that we'd been taken over by that Jordanian family who've just bought Rovers ? Personally I think the way to go is for all lower league/non league football clubs wto be set up like Wycombe are now. With a standard squad size and a fixed pay structure across all clubs in the division. This would surely create a more level playing field for each division.
These meetings are tough to get to for many no longer living in the three counties area and although I wrote to the Trust asking about the possibility of having a live feed on Player or after the fact video I have yet to receive a reply. We'll see.
I must say I detest these comments hoping for a sugar daddy to come in and take over the club. We may have to tread water for a little while ( a few seasons) but I believe that an effort to market "little Wycombe" as a second club to PL or overseas supporters may well lead to some investment through the share scheme, thereby money in the coffers from those wanting to "own" a piece of their chosen club. Not everyone has the luxury of being born in or living in Wycombe!
I have long thought, Mr Micra, that the solution to all our problems is to sell off AP for industrial land, clear the debts and begin a ground sharing arrangement at Exeter Chiefs by the M5. 11 wins from the last 13 in Devon shows that home form would be transformed, it could only be a matter of time before debt free we cruise to the Premier.
Ok its a bit of a drive but if Truro City can groundshare at Torquay, surely its not too much to ask WWFC fans to drive a bit a couple of times a month for the greater good? Agreed Mr Devonblue?
@DevC said:
I have long thought, Mr Micra, that the solution to all our problems is to sell off AP for industrial land, clear the debts and begin a ground sharing arrangement at Exeter Chiefs by the M5
Nice idea but falls down on the basis that the beer down in Devon isn't of the same variety and quality that we experience in Bucks
They said that Col U's U21 budget was 500K larger than our whole first team budget. It did sound a little surprising, but would be interested to see what figures your research has produced.
Also Andrew Howard mentioned there are currently only 2 other Category 4 Academies. Does anyone know who these 2 clubs are?
@Chris; Sorry I didn't catch (or missed ITT) what these figures represent. Is this £300,000 and £400,000. the costs of going up on increase salaries and additional costs or budget for U21 if we go up ?
I probably should know but what exactly are these "benefits" ? Are they payments from the Football League to each club at the start of the season. I've certainly never heard of them or spotted any reference to them in the accounts.
I don't know exactly what the increased benefits are, they were slightly reluctant even to give a figure at the other night's meeting.
I assume it's something to do with an increased share of TV revenue and a much bigger slice of the pot for league one compared to league two next season, but that's just a guess.
I only mentioned it because there seemed to be a misconception that someone at the meeting said we couldn't afford to go up this season, when in fact, they were talking about last season.
"Football League Chief Executive Shaun Harvey said: “The eventual level of parachute and solidarity payments made to Football League clubs from 2016/17 will only be known once the Premier League has concluded the sale of its overseas rights.
"Nevertheless, given the scale of its domestic agreement, it seems reasonable to expect that the eventual amounts paid to Football League clubs will be substantially greater than those we’ve seen previously and could amount to more than £100m per season."
One question on this youth player development programme.
Are the club going ahead and asking for funding support or are they only going ahead if they get the funding support. Not read anything that makes it that clear.
Be patient. Let's pay off Hayes accrued debt and a few seasons of stability in this division then think of promotion. There is no rush. As long as we don't get relegated or go bust things will improve.
Comments
Welcome to the realities of supporter-owned football. I'm afraid a good season for the likes of us, Wimbledon, Exeter is pleasant stasis - one neither threatened by relegation or promotion (yes indeed, as outlined above, promotion is quite a threat).
Here's the thing. I can accept stasis if the football is good. So more matches like last Saturday's please, less hit and hope. A gentle flirt with the play-offs might ensue but the club will be able to nip that in the bud through clever, if subtle, management - not releasing any loan monies for a Saunders-esque player to really push us on, for example.
However if the football is bad then us peasants will revolt. Not that we'll be able to do much other than gripe on a football message board - most of us are season ticket holders and will continue to come no matter what. But at least we can chant that the team are time-wasters and hold the club to account through fans' forums. Kinda. Anyone ask a difficult question last night? (Yes, I know I could've but like SurreyWanderer, a four-hour trip without the prospect of any football is more than I'm willing to give.)
Anyway, I like the club's spin. Let's start a youth development programme and hint it's a return to a youth team. When in reality it's going to be Gareth Ainsworth signing three or four extra Ryan Sellers from better teams' development squads to sit on the bench. And it's only happening because of the change of loan rules. However if it's given a nice name people might think we're getting a youth team back - and they might cough up to fund the new player-coach Ainsworth has been pleading for (Stevie Craig? Paul Hayes?)
Such are the realities of supporter-owned football. I know I sound a little harsh in this post but I'm genuinely impressed by how Howard is choosing to run the club at the moment. I just think it's a shame to be swimming against the tide so much here. I'd happily take the Jordanian money that's about to pour into Bristol Rovers. And watch a club actively seek success.
Indeed. I don;t believe any manager or squad would purposely throw a chance at promotion, but I can see that League One could be a financial stretch. If we do get up...STAYING will be the only aim I expect with anything else a bonus!
@DevonBlue good to hear what sounds like a more balanced and accurate report of the meeting.
@DevonBlue You are dead right that people should go but that is not always possible is it. The trouble for me is that when I do go I get a very different impression of the meeting from reading about it on forums. Not being able to make last night left me with some pretty poor fair so your post is much appreciated. It fits far more with my impression from other meetings to be honest.
MBS
I think we may need to agree to differ on continuing to blame Hayes for todays problems. For me it is the easy answer. If we continue to do that rather than face up to the reality that todays issues are simply that today we are struggling to get enough cash in to meet the cash going out, then we risk failing to address today's real issues.
You are right that any value of the ground is in the land value. It cant realistically be used for housing (which is where the high land values are). I am not really up to date with South East land values but I suspect that land for industrial use at best with planning issues and significant costs of clearance ain't going to be worth he amounts.
Further if the only way of realising that value assuming we want to stay as a functioning football club is to borrow against its value (either directly or as a sale and lease back) is highly problematic as well. Any investor has to look at the worst case of what happens if WWFC cant repay the loan or make the rent payments. As a struggling football club, our covenant ( the likelihood of default happening) is very weak. If we couldn't meet the costs the lendor/freeholder then has the problem of pretty undesirable land plus the PR nightmare of being the ogre trying to evict the towns football club. Frankly why would you advance money commercially just to give yourself the strong probability of a headache before too long.
Forget the stadium as a saviour to cash issues, it wont be. The only practical value it may have is a way of paying debts if the football club died, at which stage few will care much about the debts.
The football club has to find a way of balancing cash in from attendances /tv money/commercial sponsorship/transfer fees (although these are uncertain) less trading costs plus subsidy either provided by supporters "investment" or worst case a new sugar daddy. If it cant find a way of doing so, it will not survive.
Wouldn't it be lovely if a rich American bought us here's to dreaming
Interesting and informative. For someone with no business experience, but a lot of life experience, it was good to read. thanks.....
Would people on here prefer that we'd been taken over by that Jordanian family who've just bought Rovers ? Personally I think the way to go is for all lower league/non league football clubs wto be set up like Wycombe are now. With a standard squad size and a fixed pay structure across all clubs in the division. This would surely create a more level playing field for each division.
These meetings are tough to get to for many no longer living in the three counties area and although I wrote to the Trust asking about the possibility of having a live feed on Player or after the fact video I have yet to receive a reply. We'll see.
I must say I detest these comments hoping for a sugar daddy to come in and take over the club. We may have to tread water for a little while ( a few seasons) but I believe that an effort to market "little Wycombe" as a second club to PL or overseas supporters may well lead to some investment through the share scheme, thereby money in the coffers from those wanting to "own" a piece of their chosen club. Not everyone has the luxury of being born in or living in Wycombe!
Interesting post by @DevonBlue which tallies with my own recollection. Enlightening stuff from @DevC also so the "Booker" Prize heads west. Ooh Aaar.
I have done a bit of research re the Col U comment regarding the funding of their U21s is greater than the funding of our 1st team. It is fiction.
I have long thought, Mr Micra, that the solution to all our problems is to sell off AP for industrial land, clear the debts and begin a ground sharing arrangement at Exeter Chiefs by the M5. 11 wins from the last 13 in Devon shows that home form would be transformed, it could only be a matter of time before debt free we cruise to the Premier.
Ok its a bit of a drive but if Truro City can groundshare at Torquay, surely its not too much to ask WWFC fans to drive a bit a couple of times a month for the greater good? Agreed Mr Devonblue?
Nice idea but falls down on the basis that the beer down in Devon isn't of the same variety and quality that we experience in Bucks
@Right_in_the_Middle; I don't believe it, we are in sync on this issue.
"I'm just not sure what it offers an investor but fingers crossed someone see some benefit. We've sold most of the family silver. We need some more."
Beer? What the f*cks beer?
What are your sources @Fit2Drop??
They said that Col U's U21 budget was 500K larger than our whole first team budget. It did sound a little surprising, but would be interested to see what figures your research has produced.
Also Andrew Howard mentioned there are currently only 2 other Category 4 Academies. Does anyone know who these 2 clubs are?
@DevC fully agree with your suggestion only 15 mins to home games...let it happen.
They even put a number on it, saying the difference between promotion last season and this is between £300,000 and £400,000.
Steven Craig's promotion bonus?
@Chris; Sorry I didn't catch (or missed ITT) what these figures represent. Is this £300,000 and £400,000. the costs of going up on increase salaries and additional costs or budget for U21 if we go up ?
No idea, I was quoting Len
The £300,000 to £400,000 figure is not an increase in costs, it's an increase in benefits if we were promoted this season compared to last season.
I probably should know but what exactly are these "benefits" ? Are they payments from the Football League to each club at the start of the season. I've certainly never heard of them or spotted any reference to them in the accounts.
I don't know exactly what the increased benefits are, they were slightly reluctant even to give a figure at the other night's meeting.
I assume it's something to do with an increased share of TV revenue and a much bigger slice of the pot for league one compared to league two next season, but that's just a guess.
I only mentioned it because there seemed to be a misconception that someone at the meeting said we couldn't afford to go up this season, when in fact, they were talking about last season.
A quick Google reveals this...
"Football League Chief Executive Shaun Harvey said: “The eventual level of parachute and solidarity payments made to Football League clubs from 2016/17 will only be known once the Premier League has concluded the sale of its overseas rights.
"Nevertheless, given the scale of its domestic agreement, it seems reasonable to expect that the eventual amounts paid to Football League clubs will be substantially greater than those we’ve seen previously and could amount to more than £100m per season."
Read more at http://www.football-league.co.uk/news/article/2015/football-league-clubs-get-double-financial-boost-2281337.aspx#RFL5dsr3X5hJP3At.99
Thanks for that. Too befuddled today to cope with anything too complex but will follow the link in due course.
One question on this youth player development programme.
Are the club going ahead and asking for funding support or are they only going ahead if they get the funding support. Not read anything that makes it that clear.
Be patient. Let's pay off Hayes accrued debt and a few seasons of stability in this division then think of promotion. There is no rush. As long as we don't get relegated or go bust things will improve.
its not Hayes debt, how many times ????? he wrote off any debt which was millions before the sale was agreed.
It is debt to Hayes.
yes repayments of 100k a year, has he wanted all his money back we would have gone into administration and probably been liquidated.