The whole system is arse about tit now. While supporters may not want to hear it, we will never have an academy at Wycombe again, the model simply doesn't work anymore. Ironically our time should be spent scouting the premier and championship academies to ensure the best of the players they cast off, find a welcoming home at Wycombe. We can, and do offer genuine opportunities to players to develop and progress.
I coach my sons football team and my biggest bug bear though is when I hear players say, so and so plays for Chelsea, I train with Crystal Palace Academy, etc.. I had my goalkeeper at the age of seven approached by "Crystal Palace" and asked if he wanted to come and train with them. Of course he did, what 8 year old wouldn't, very difficult for a parent to refuse. Turned out the "Crystal Palace Academy" cost £10 a week, yes there is a link to Crystal Palace but very tenuous. Funnily enough after 2 years he stopped, as all he wanted to do was play football with his friends......now aged 14 plays upfront, as that is what he enjoys the most.
As SurreyWanderer says, we can utilise the brutal nature of Premier League/Championship academies to our advantage. Pick up the cast offs when they are 19/20/21 years old, give them first team football, and sell them on for a tidy profit a few years later when they realise their potential.
This is where I'd love to see more targeted fund raising from the Trust.
If they said to fans we need to raise "x amount" to expand our scouting system, extend our reach, get good people in and pay expenses, etc, so we can find more discarded gems through U18/U21 games and non-league, then I think fans would jump at getting involved.
It might be 20k or more, but as long as its a realistic target its something that supporters could buy into when they see the end products coming through. You'd also make the money back with just one half decent find.
I am not convinced that players cast aside from Premier League academy and youth systems would be any use to us in League Two; not without an extended period of re-training.
I remember being excited, when Anthony Jeffrey joined a couple of seasons ago, at the prospect of having an ex-Arsenal youth in the side. As it turned out, aside from being able to run quite quickly, he seemed to have few of the other attributes that one would normally associate with a top footballer.
Jason McCarthy looks a very good player, but the difference there is that he is not a "cast off" and is unlikely to be so: hence, likely to be unaffordable as a permanent signing for the likes of Wycombe Wanderers.
Though he signed for us 21 years after Brentford last played a game in the Championship and he signed before the last game of the League One season which was played on 25th May. Pierre signed on May 16th? He signed from a League One team.
Even though she is attached to a club that i have great fondness for when one of football's leading lights (certainly top woman) argued that baked bean companies don't grow their own baked beans what hope does youth development have?
Massive difference between a say Premier young product and applying his traits in the lower leagues.
Firstly the types of service and positioning play (i got plenty of space for roll over or tw, maybe try three) major role in upper leagues as opposed to fit as f!@#, physical, high intensity and run all day "get in your face" types that excel in the lower divisions.
Secondly imagine all the creature comforts and surroundings up in the upper echelons to then head down the road to the majority of lower league clubs with basic amenities, possibly smaller ground and leisure luxuries.
They certainly come down from high heaven to play among the earth folk, with quite a shock to their system and aspirations of a Premier league side who they trained with since they where a youngon to have to get down and dirty on a mid December match a few miles from nowhere as they've never heard of the place as it wasn't named in their European Football magazine (sticker book) they subscribed too since a kid starlet or agents midnight whispers of fame and fortune at such a place with no boaters.
Yeap a quite a few don't adjust or adopt to their predicament. Crazy that.
As for the article, I think it was spot on, my dreams of an academy/u18/21 are long gone.
Why bother in the current system that's loaded in the Premier favor.
Not sure this assumption that top league players get more space is that true anymore with all the in vogue high level pressing going on now. It's being talked up in the media as the big new thing but in reality it is just what lower league sides have done for years. I didn't get the impression we had more time on the ball in the two Villa games than a league two fixture for example.
I worry about talented young footballers going through academies now. They get no life skills and are left with poior quality matches for far too long. In short they don't come out battle hardened and ready to play. Some will succeed but far too many will drift away from the game without being given a shot at being the best they can be.
I've been so impressed with the attitude of Jason McCarthy at Wycombe. I think his development with us would be worth two or three years of U21 football.
Some interesting points Righty but I'm conscious of generalising about a system with over 10,000 players in it - some of those have plenty of life skills and plenty of them are being taught life skills by some good people within Academies too.
Plenty of poor attitudes but plenty of good ones too.
I agree with RitM about experience, wasn't it Matty Phillips when selected for England U21's had more 1st team game experience than the rest of the squad put together ?
@peterparrotface Yeah, I can see that working in our favour and might look good to those worried about where their money goes in the current share scheme.
Having coached at a reasonable level, the point being missed is. In every age group the club only actually wants at best 2 players. The rest are all just making up the numbers to get a team together. Parents are among the most gullible. They watch week in week out and cannot see the truth. The clubs are culpable as they pretend they want all the players. The vast majority of the talented under 10s only look good because they have practised so much. I recomend yoy read "Bounce" by Matthew Syed.
Dispels most of the myths around so called talent.
I still run around looking at players mentioned by friends and associates and it's frightening how many u8/9s playing in Club Academy and Development squads, think it's all gravy and constantly Club dropping. Not expecting the inevitable cull by 16 years of age too 3 or 4 players, then for one or two to get a 1st year Pro contract after they survive the under 18s Academy Squad to play u21 reserve team football with a few seniors returning from injury or banished to play in said squad for getting on the wrong side of the gaffer.
Final solution to play non League, and often than not earn more money (Part time training, twice a week, a few with aspirations of getting out of the conference train full time ofc, especially the recent relegated sides aiming for promotion) than quite a few playing in League 2, who don't fancy the stigma of saying they play non League on lower wages they are on, after dining at the top tables in the Premier/Championship.
@ RITM.
"Not sure this assumption that top league players get more space is that true anymore with all the in vogue high level pressing going on now". Why I disagree.
1 - Players with better ability, make time and more space. So if you did your pressing game and you are sh!!t, you will be knackered chasing shadows. Do you think Liverpool will keep their rate of knots up for the entire season. I don't.
2 - Pitches are like bowling greens and size, have you been to Arsenal or Chelsea's training grounds, if so you know what I mean. Yummy space.
3 - Alot of these players, had service, knew if they made said run, they would get it as oppose to making the runs several times and your team mates in the lower leagues, who are not on your wave length, guess what, you will stop making them needless runs and instead wait 20 seconds for the ball to land from launch point, with a 6'5" defender's knee in your ribs.
4- Lower leagues is physical and relentless beast, that Premiership and Championship rejects are not accustom too.
In my opinion we are leagues apart from Germany Bundeslegia, pardon the expression,the Germany Bundeslegia season is shorter, less games and less competitions.
As for my initial analysis I was stating that Premiership and Championship Academy sides I have watched play with fluency and to feet most of time with a high emphasis on ball retention and the back four don't just hoof it up field, they are expected to find a player and most of time there isn't the physicality we enjoy in our league. So when players head down they need to adopt fast as Academy football is a far cry from playing with journey men and experience pros.
If not, why do so many young released players get casted-away and forgotten ?
You haven't actually answered the point. Is the German season so much shorter that it makes the difference between gegenpressing working or not? I have not comments on the rest of your post because to be honest its a bit long. Some of your posts are a bit rambling and would be better IMHO with fewer words.
Less miles for starters, Xmas off for 2 weeks, unlike us with 3 games in 8 days. So a player in the Germans Bundeslegia, carries out his Gengen press duties less often than Liverpool with longer recovery time.
PS. have you seen the corridors of Liverpool General. Fair few out with hamstrings wouldn't you say.
I'm no Liverpool anorak but the Liverpool injury crisis is probably no worse that it was under Graham Souness, who was shamefully quick to offer his criticism of the new regime. I doubt they go to Liverpool General not that I've any idea which hospital that is. Is there one that does hamstring replacements?
@Ciderk1d I'm trying to react to your counter of my opinion that top league players now don't give the opposition as much time as they used too. Trouble is I don't disagree with a lot of your post but it doesn't actually talk about what I said. Villa didn't let us play over two games. Fitness, ability and pitch quality have no real relevance.
Ciderk1d . Thanks for the endorsement. Regarding the injuries and fitness of footballers. Training in football is terrifyingly blinkered. This is a major contributor to the volume of injuries sustained in football. Overall fitness levels compared to Cyclists, Rowers, Boxers, Tennis players and Judoka is average at best. Complain about 3 games in 7 days. Andy Murry can play 3 games a week all may be longer than 2 hours. At a major coaching seminar after 1992 Barcelona Olympics all the leading sporting bodies were represented except, guess who?
Never mentioned top players in the same sentence or paragraph. I am referring too young players who have been released from the top Clubs and ply their trade to Lower Leagues, who I believe tend to find the game alot harder and struggle then Academy Football i.e Villa playing West Brom Academy or Derby on a lovely lawned spacious pitch in cyrillic surroundings (I have been up and down watching U16-21 Academy Premier League Football, believe me), who look awesome then drift and struggle to put a shift in, playing in League 2 over a season for variety reasons post in earlier comments.
Comments
The whole system is arse about tit now. While supporters may not want to hear it, we will never have an academy at Wycombe again, the model simply doesn't work anymore. Ironically our time should be spent scouting the premier and championship academies to ensure the best of the players they cast off, find a welcoming home at Wycombe. We can, and do offer genuine opportunities to players to develop and progress.
I coach my sons football team and my biggest bug bear though is when I hear players say, so and so plays for Chelsea, I train with Crystal Palace Academy, etc.. I had my goalkeeper at the age of seven approached by "Crystal Palace" and asked if he wanted to come and train with them. Of course he did, what 8 year old wouldn't, very difficult for a parent to refuse. Turned out the "Crystal Palace Academy" cost £10 a week, yes there is a link to Crystal Palace but very tenuous. Funnily enough after 2 years he stopped, as all he wanted to do was play football with his friends......now aged 14 plays upfront, as that is what he enjoys the most.
As SurreyWanderer says, we can utilise the brutal nature of Premier League/Championship academies to our advantage. Pick up the cast offs when they are 19/20/21 years old, give them first team football, and sell them on for a tidy profit a few years later when they realise their potential.
This is where I'd love to see more targeted fund raising from the Trust.
If they said to fans we need to raise "x amount" to expand our scouting system, extend our reach, get good people in and pay expenses, etc, so we can find more discarded gems through U18/U21 games and non-league, then I think fans would jump at getting involved.
It might be 20k or more, but as long as its a realistic target its something that supporters could buy into when they see the end products coming through. You'd also make the money back with just one half decent find.
Any views?
I am not convinced that players cast aside from Premier League academy and youth systems would be any use to us in League Two; not without an extended period of re-training.
I remember being excited, when Anthony Jeffrey joined a couple of seasons ago, at the prospect of having an ex-Arsenal youth in the side. As it turned out, aside from being able to run quite quickly, he seemed to have few of the other attributes that one would normally associate with a top footballer.
Jason McCarthy looks a very good player, but the difference there is that he is not a "cast off" and is unlikely to be so: hence, likely to be unaffordable as a permanent signing for the likes of Wycombe Wanderers.
O'Nien is an example of a cast off from a Premier team who isn't doing too bad for us. Pierre is another, albeit from a Championship team.
When Pierre first came to us Brentford were a League One side.
Not when we signed him permanently as they had been promoted.
Though he signed for us 21 years after Brentford last played a game in the Championship and he signed before the last game of the League One season which was played on 25th May. Pierre signed on May 16th? He signed from a League One team.
The difference is pure and simple. Determination Attitude and a little dose of humility. That discounts a pretty high percentage of footballers.
Even though she is attached to a club that i have great fondness for when one of football's leading lights (certainly top woman) argued that baked bean companies don't grow their own baked beans what hope does youth development have?
Massive difference between a say Premier young product and applying his traits in the lower leagues.
Firstly the types of service and positioning play (i got plenty of space for roll over or tw, maybe try three) major role in upper leagues as opposed to fit as f!@#, physical, high intensity and run all day "get in your face" types that excel in the lower divisions.
Secondly imagine all the creature comforts and surroundings up in the upper echelons to then head down the road to the majority of lower league clubs with basic amenities, possibly smaller ground and leisure luxuries.
They certainly come down from high heaven to play among the earth folk, with quite a shock to their system and aspirations of a Premier league side who they trained with since they where a youngon to have to get down and dirty on a mid December match a few miles from nowhere as they've never heard of the place as it wasn't named in their European Football magazine (sticker book) they subscribed too since a kid starlet or agents midnight whispers of fame and fortune at such a place with no boaters.
Yeap a quite a few don't adjust or adopt to their predicament. Crazy that.
As for the article, I think it was spot on, my dreams of an academy/u18/21 are long gone.
Why bother in the current system that's loaded in the Premier favor.
Not sure this assumption that top league players get more space is that true anymore with all the in vogue high level pressing going on now. It's being talked up in the media as the big new thing but in reality it is just what lower league sides have done for years. I didn't get the impression we had more time on the ball in the two Villa games than a league two fixture for example.
I worry about talented young footballers going through academies now. They get no life skills and are left with poior quality matches for far too long. In short they don't come out battle hardened and ready to play. Some will succeed but far too many will drift away from the game without being given a shot at being the best they can be.
I've been so impressed with the attitude of Jason McCarthy at Wycombe. I think his development with us would be worth two or three years of U21 football.
Some interesting points Righty but I'm conscious of generalising about a system with over 10,000 players in it - some of those have plenty of life skills and plenty of them are being taught life skills by some good people within Academies too.
Plenty of poor attitudes but plenty of good ones too.
I agree with RitM about experience, wasn't it Matty Phillips when selected for England U21's had more 1st team game experience than the rest of the squad put together ?
@peterparrotface Yeah, I can see that working in our favour and might look good to those worried about where their money goes in the current share scheme.
Having coached at a reasonable level, the point being missed is. In every age group the club only actually wants at best 2 players. The rest are all just making up the numbers to get a team together. Parents are among the most gullible. They watch week in week out and cannot see the truth. The clubs are culpable as they pretend they want all the players. The vast majority of the talented under 10s only look good because they have practised so much. I recomend yoy read "Bounce" by Matthew Syed.
Dispels most of the myths around so called talent.
@Fit2drop;
Spot on, need I say anymore but I will.
I still run around looking at players mentioned by friends and associates and it's frightening how many u8/9s playing in Club Academy and Development squads, think it's all gravy and constantly Club dropping. Not expecting the inevitable cull by 16 years of age too 3 or 4 players, then for one or two to get a 1st year Pro contract after they survive the under 18s Academy Squad to play u21 reserve team football with a few seniors returning from injury or banished to play in said squad for getting on the wrong side of the gaffer.
Final solution to play non League, and often than not earn more money (Part time training, twice a week, a few with aspirations of getting out of the conference train full time ofc, especially the recent relegated sides aiming for promotion) than quite a few playing in League 2, who don't fancy the stigma of saying they play non League on lower wages they are on, after dining at the top tables in the Premier/Championship.
@ RITM.
"Not sure this assumption that top league players get more space is that true anymore with all the in vogue high level pressing going on now". Why I disagree.
1 - Players with better ability, make time and more space. So if you did your pressing game and you are sh!!t, you will be knackered chasing shadows. Do you think Liverpool will keep their rate of knots up for the entire season. I don't.
2 - Pitches are like bowling greens and size, have you been to Arsenal or Chelsea's training grounds, if so you know what I mean. Yummy space.
3 - Alot of these players, had service, knew if they made said run, they would get it as oppose to making the runs several times and your team mates in the lower leagues, who are not on your wave length, guess what, you will stop making them needless runs and instead wait 20 seconds for the ball to land from launch point, with a 6'5" defender's knee in your ribs.
4- Lower leagues is physical and relentless beast, that Premiership and Championship rejects are not accustom too.
Over too you RITM.
@Ciderk1d your posts are very long, but I've no idea why you think gegenpressing won't work at Liverpool when it worked at Dortmund.
@Baldric;
In my opinion we are leagues apart from Germany Bundeslegia, pardon the expression,the Germany Bundeslegia season is shorter, less games and less competitions.
As for my initial analysis I was stating that Premiership and Championship Academy sides I have watched play with fluency and to feet most of time with a high emphasis on ball retention and the back four don't just hoof it up field, they are expected to find a player and most of time there isn't the physicality we enjoy in our league. So when players head down they need to adopt fast as Academy football is a far cry from playing with journey men and experience pros.
If not, why do so many young released players get casted-away and forgotten ?
You haven't actually answered the point. Is the German season so much shorter that it makes the difference between gegenpressing working or not? I have not comments on the rest of your post because to be honest its a bit long. Some of your posts are a bit rambling and would be better IMHO with fewer words.
Less miles for starters, Xmas off for 2 weeks, unlike us with 3 games in 8 days. So a player in the Germans Bundeslegia, carries out his Gengen press duties less often than Liverpool with longer recovery time.
PS. have you seen the corridors of Liverpool General. Fair few out with hamstrings wouldn't you say.
I'm no Liverpool anorak but the Liverpool injury crisis is probably no worse that it was under Graham Souness, who was shamefully quick to offer his criticism of the new regime. I doubt they go to Liverpool General not that I've any idea which hospital that is. Is there one that does hamstring replacements?
@Ciderk1d I'm trying to react to your counter of my opinion that top league players now don't give the opposition as much time as they used too. Trouble is I don't disagree with a lot of your post but it doesn't actually talk about what I said. Villa didn't let us play over two games. Fitness, ability and pitch quality have no real relevance.
Ciderk1d . Thanks for the endorsement. Regarding the injuries and fitness of footballers. Training in football is terrifyingly blinkered. This is a major contributor to the volume of injuries sustained in football. Overall fitness levels compared to Cyclists, Rowers, Boxers, Tennis players and Judoka is average at best. Complain about 3 games in 7 days. Andy Murry can play 3 games a week all may be longer than 2 hours. At a major coaching seminar after 1992 Barcelona Olympics all the leading sporting bodies were represented except, guess who?
@RITM;
Never mentioned top players in the same sentence or paragraph. I am referring too young players who have been released from the top Clubs and ply their trade to Lower Leagues, who I believe tend to find the game alot harder and struggle then Academy Football i.e Villa playing West Brom Academy or Derby on a lovely lawned spacious pitch in cyrillic surroundings (I have been up and down watching U16-21 Academy Premier League Football, believe me), who look awesome then drift and struggle to put a shift in, playing in League 2 over a season for variety reasons post in earlier comments.
@Baldric;
Came from top of head regarding the name of a Liverpool Hospital, couldn't be arsed to check on a search engine, me bad.
Cyrillic surroundings sound wonderful, was this in Bulgaria, or in the Regis family estate?