...but that said, it's always surprised me that Ainsworth instigated that pitch-narrowing thing, having been a winger himself. Surely having a wide pitch is a godsend for a winger as it gives you more space to beat your man, or is he tacitly making the point that our crosses aren't that great so narrowing the pitch gives us less room to fvck it up?
@NewburyWanderer wrote
December 29
Absolutely. We lost far, far more fans than we gained when he left. Perhaps many more people than generally realised actually wanted the new ground at Booker, and the money injected (loaned) by a sole owner (no puns please)!
I can't agree with the suggestion that many people actively wanted Hayes to build the stadium in Booker. In my involvement with the No To Booker campaign, of all the hundreds of people I spoke to, I think I bumped into all of one person who could be classed as actively wanting Hayes to realise his plan. There were a number of people who maybe weren't 100% convinced, though were going along with it as they saw it as the lesser of the evils on offer.
Also, the season Hayes left, we had been relegated down to the 4th tier which would have been the biggest factor in the drop in crowds. Again, I don't know of anyone who has even suggested that they stopped attending as Steve Hayes was no longer the owner. If it was hoped that hundreds, or even thousands, would flock back after Hayes left, then this was a misplaced hope. Other factors will no doubt play a part (personal financial situations, high price of watching football, locals more attracted to relatively successful egg chasers) in why our attendances have gone down to levels not seen since our first season at Adams Park.
The pitch narrowed at the start of last season @drcongo - a campaign which saw ten league victories at Adams Park (not including the play off semi final win).
Somewhere in my notes, I remember that the average return at home for the three previous seasons was six/seven home league wins over the season (the excellent chaps at @Vital will doubtless have this information at their fingertips).
It's actually started to improve since the narrowing, but that is also down to many other factors.
Speaking to fans of other clubs, they seem to like AP, but hate getting there and getting back. I suspect location plays some role in the ups and downs of local attendance as well. It's not an easy place to make a snap decision to go to the footy. I was not in the area during the Loakes Park years...but would imagine it was easier to amble along and attend.
It is an arse-end of a location but I seem to remember we were still pulling in 4.5-5k for home games when we first dropped back into the 4th tier?
Then the malaise slowly crept in and our aspirations have since become somewhat limited. Not sure how much that feeds into the local populace as has been suggested.
@ReadingMarginalista . If memory serves . The Booker plan had already been rejected , Hayes then stopped putting money into the team and this was therefore in part responsible for our relegation. I was not against Booker but then I was also happy to remain at AP . The one thing I am sure has happened is that with Hayes and that dream gone the ambition also went. I accept he may have not had the best intentions for the club and in the long run I am glad he is no longer here . Purely in respect to dwindling crowds : it is my opinion that the "small club " "no money " PR stance is doing nothing to help this and the "floaters" in the town are not being turned on by it either . We may not have a big budget but the rhetoric of "small" and "over achievers " which is constantly being thrown at us is making this town think just that . We are a small club at the bottom of an industrial estate and what is attractive about that ?
Let's stop for a moment and remember where we'd have imminently been with Hayes.
Tenants in a stadium, rattling round with 3,000 fans in a stadium built for 20,000 with Wasps in mind, well, for the 1 game or so a year they'd need anywhere near that.
We wouldn't have made any income from any of the "facilities" around the ground.
I wonder how anyone could possibly have seen any future in that>
@bourne70 , interesting view, but I'd expect the people who slaver over every word online are the hardcore fans. You know the type, the ones who are retweeting every single post they can find, have no time in between the pre match build up, the game, the after match etc, go to most games etc.
I doubt any floating fans put anywhere near as much in, and just choose to go to a game when they fancy.
I very much doubt they're put off by perceived negativity and small timerism.
It is disappointing that there seems to have been no Wembley bounce. Despite the eventual outcome it was an enjoyable day. Perhaps the positive response to the villa game suggests that there is some latent potential waiting to be converted. Hard to see how to do that though. Incidentally it would be interesting to see how much the drop off will be if we reach Wembley play off again this year.
Re attendances, it is a common mistake to assume a continuum of support. It isn't of course. Each year a substantial proportion of that years support will cease going for a whole range of factors - work commitments, health, got married, had children, went to uni, died' ..... At least 10 per cent each year previously regular supporters are lost. To stand still in attendances they have to be replaced.
Around the trust takeover time, the clubs made the classic mistake of believing it's activists reflect the wider community. Political parties make the same mistake from time to time. In wwfc case the overwhelming message that went out was "isn't it wonderful that we are fan owned. We are going to be crap on the pitch now cos we've got no money but who cares we're fan owned". The activists loved this, it's what they wanted, it may be the best for the club, but the activists were going to attend anyway. Meanwhile out there in the community, those who needed to be attracted to replace those having to stop attending, they didn't care about ownership , why would they? So they just heard the "we've got no cash we're going to struggle" message. Not surprisingly they didn't want to sign up to this. Those supporters who should now be part of the core were lost for good.
The message is better now but significant damage was done for a while.
in this internet age, information is quite easy to get on many subjects. So I cant post on whether say O'Nien had a good game last Saturday, but I can post on whether club marketing campaigns re targeted well.
Perhaps sometimes it is an advantage not being with the same group each Saturday and hence not being exposed to the same "received wisdom"??
I'm not sure that 'we're going to be crap' reached the wider world any more effectively than 'hey come and support us' does, Dev. I had about five years off from buying a ST because I just did not have the spare cash and I think that might be the case for lots of people. Despite Bucks being seen as 'affluent'...I think you have to be very keen or just love match-day to make an effort to pay to see League Two or even League One footy...which often does not appeal to those demanding Premier League entertainment or the oval ball...and can be a struggle for those who do want to come. I suspect that until we can either be pushing for the Championship from the top of League One, or are regulars at Wembley for one thing of another, we will continue to struggle to attract more bodies to AP.
@Wendoverman I think that's definitely a point a lot of us overlook, having the readies available.
I can't envisage a scenario now whereas £300 or so couldn't be found for my main leisure activity, but I guess life can change fairly quickly.
I'd say watching us at times over the last decade is only bearable through a season ticket. My seat would be £12.70 a game on average. I certainly would baulk if I had to pay the matchday £22!
DevC There is a lot of truth in what you say the majority of football 'customers' don't particularly care about the ownership of their club but I don't think we should lock the gates just yet as someone who attends every home game i see lot of good things are happening at AP I'm seeing a lot more pitch side advertising, the volunteers are doing an excellent job and the GA/AH combination works well yes there's always more that can be done but we've got a 5year plan let's stick to it
Actually I agree with you. I think the team running the club at the moment is strong.
Not sure I give a huge weight to five year plans in any business, certainly one not as fast moving as football, but I think they are getting much more right than wrong.
Things will change though, somewhere tonight perhaps a chairman somewhere is thinking that what his club really needs is a young manager good at building team spirit (maybe that chairman lives in Swindon) and maybe the next manager will not prove as effective. Sooner or later we will have a bad season or two. Not totally convinced we have the resilience in our model to ride that. But maybe I am just feeling a little down this evening!
As another no-longer-local fan, I must admit I hear a lot of 'well they're doing really well for the position their in' when I return home from people who used to be occasional attendees.
I get the impression that a lot of locals first and often only source of information about with Wycombe comes through the BFP who always seem to concentrate on Ainsworth's 'the spirit and the struggle' message which leaves the impression of a team that are doing well but can only get worse.
It may be that a little change in rhetoric, with a bit more concentration on building to the future, could be a good ploy in attracting a few more floaters without actually changing any plans.
@DevC we came within the width of a crossbar of going out of the football league as a trust-owned club less than two years ago. When you say "sooner or later we will have a bad season" do you mean worse than that?
A big problem with the home attendances is the collapse of the community scheme. WWFC are not in the primary schools. We used to be in every primary school in High Wycombe. Saturday morning clubs, after school clubs, marquee in the car park and half time penalties involving local youth football. I often coached on a Saturday morning 70 kids, 30 wearing the quarters. The current scheme or lack off is rubbish.
Personally I think it's all about the football. For all the arguments about marketing/sub-texts about expectations we are still capable of attracting floating Wycombe supporters to the 'bigger' games. The trouble is that when they come along the football is invariably uninspiring. (It was an unwritten law a few years ago that every time we ran a 'kid a quid' promotion it would be a dire game so things don't change that much).
Because the football isn't great at home (usually) we also don't get that buzz in the town when people talk excitedly about Saturday's game at work/school on the Monday and people feel they're missing out. (Actually I wonder with the prevelance of football on TV and- particularly this year with the travails of Chelsea and Man U - hilarious as it is - most of the talk is about that).
In the past, when we've had the quantum leaps in attendances (Lee, Kelman, O'Neill) we have managed to mix success with a thrilling style of football.
We don't have that (yet) so I think the best we can hope for is maintaining current levels of support for the foreseeable.
But also be thankful for that as it could have been a lot worse.
And as GA gets more experienced and confident you never know we may develop into an exciting AND successful team
It's simple really: if the football is perceived to be a bit sh*t then some people are just not interested. Plus it's £22 for the casual adult to get in. So the "maths" is:
L2 standard football x £22 x crap weather = "I'll stay at home and/or take the kids/missus/partner/dog/etc out or just watch Jeff on Sky"
Attendances only go up when we get a lot of away fans - this would increase in L1.
What the answer is - God only knows. But I do know we have to get out of this league to stand any chance of increasing attendances (and playing standards and more away fans.....) - you are not going to find an extra 1000 fans while we are in L2.
@ReadingMarginalista - I know a lot of people who would have been quite happy at Booker. You are only speaking from your non league point of view with those that didn't want the club to move forward. Look at Chesterfield, Shrewsbury, Brighton, Reading etc I'm sure those clubs all wished that they were still playing in their old toilets of grounds.
Did anyone ever explain how being a tenant, and thus paying rent to play in a stadium we wouldn't fill to even 1/6 of capacity, and getting no income from the surrounding facilities, would ever "move us forward"?
Obviously beyond the random pipe dream of Hayes lashing cash in, and somehow we'd climb a couple of divisons and then magic 20,000 crowds?
Comments
...but that said, it's always surprised me that Ainsworth instigated that pitch-narrowing thing, having been a winger himself. Surely having a wide pitch is a godsend for a winger as it gives you more space to beat your man, or is he tacitly making the point that our crosses aren't that great so narrowing the pitch gives us less room to fvck it up?
The socks edge it just too far for me.
I can't agree with the suggestion that many people actively wanted Hayes to build the stadium in Booker. In my involvement with the No To Booker campaign, of all the hundreds of people I spoke to, I think I bumped into all of one person who could be classed as actively wanting Hayes to realise his plan. There were a number of people who maybe weren't 100% convinced, though were going along with it as they saw it as the lesser of the evils on offer.
Also, the season Hayes left, we had been relegated down to the 4th tier which would have been the biggest factor in the drop in crowds. Again, I don't know of anyone who has even suggested that they stopped attending as Steve Hayes was no longer the owner. If it was hoped that hundreds, or even thousands, would flock back after Hayes left, then this was a misplaced hope. Other factors will no doubt play a part (personal financial situations, high price of watching football, locals more attracted to relatively successful egg chasers) in why our attendances have gone down to levels not seen since our first season at Adams Park.
The pitch narrowed at the start of last season @drcongo - a campaign which saw ten league victories at Adams Park (not including the play off semi final win).
Somewhere in my notes, I remember that the average return at home for the three previous seasons was six/seven home league wins over the season (the excellent chaps at @Vital will doubtless have this information at their fingertips).
It's actually started to improve since the narrowing, but that is also down to many other factors.
Speaking to fans of other clubs, they seem to like AP, but hate getting there and getting back. I suspect location plays some role in the ups and downs of local attendance as well. It's not an easy place to make a snap decision to go to the footy. I was not in the area during the Loakes Park years...but would imagine it was easier to amble along and attend.
It is an arse-end of a location but I seem to remember we were still pulling in 4.5-5k for home games when we first dropped back into the 4th tier?
Then the malaise slowly crept in and our aspirations have since become somewhat limited. Not sure how much that feeds into the local populace as has been suggested.
@drcongo Jeez, Sido knows how to pick a pair of rhythms!
@ReadingMarginalista . If memory serves . The Booker plan had already been rejected , Hayes then stopped putting money into the team and this was therefore in part responsible for our relegation. I was not against Booker but then I was also happy to remain at AP . The one thing I am sure has happened is that with Hayes and that dream gone the ambition also went. I accept he may have not had the best intentions for the club and in the long run I am glad he is no longer here . Purely in respect to dwindling crowds : it is my opinion that the "small club " "no money " PR stance is doing nothing to help this and the "floaters" in the town are not being turned on by it either . We may not have a big budget but the rhetoric of "small" and "over achievers " which is constantly being thrown at us is making this town think just that . We are a small club at the bottom of an industrial estate and what is attractive about that ?
Let's stop for a moment and remember where we'd have imminently been with Hayes.
Tenants in a stadium, rattling round with 3,000 fans in a stadium built for 20,000 with Wasps in mind, well, for the 1 game or so a year they'd need anywhere near that.
We wouldn't have made any income from any of the "facilities" around the ground.
I wonder how anyone could possibly have seen any future in that>
@bourne70 , interesting view, but I'd expect the people who slaver over every word online are the hardcore fans. You know the type, the ones who are retweeting every single post they can find, have no time in between the pre match build up, the game, the after match etc, go to most games etc.
I doubt any floating fans put anywhere near as much in, and just choose to go to a game when they fancy.
I very much doubt they're put off by perceived negativity and small timerism.
It is disappointing that there seems to have been no Wembley bounce. Despite the eventual outcome it was an enjoyable day. Perhaps the positive response to the villa game suggests that there is some latent potential waiting to be converted. Hard to see how to do that though. Incidentally it would be interesting to see how much the drop off will be if we reach Wembley play off again this year.
Re attendances, it is a common mistake to assume a continuum of support. It isn't of course. Each year a substantial proportion of that years support will cease going for a whole range of factors - work commitments, health, got married, had children, went to uni, died' ..... At least 10 per cent each year previously regular supporters are lost. To stand still in attendances they have to be replaced.
Around the trust takeover time, the clubs made the classic mistake of believing it's activists reflect the wider community. Political parties make the same mistake from time to time. In wwfc case the overwhelming message that went out was "isn't it wonderful that we are fan owned. We are going to be crap on the pitch now cos we've got no money but who cares we're fan owned". The activists loved this, it's what they wanted, it may be the best for the club, but the activists were going to attend anyway. Meanwhile out there in the community, those who needed to be attracted to replace those having to stop attending, they didn't care about ownership , why would they? So they just heard the "we've got no cash we're going to struggle" message. Not surprisingly they didn't want to sign up to this. Those supporters who should now be part of the core were lost for good.
The message is better now but significant damage was done for a while.
Nice post Dev.
You live in the south west though don't you?
What makes you think you have the insight into something happening 200miles away, that you are nowhere near to?
fair question, Malone.
in this internet age, information is quite easy to get on many subjects. So I cant post on whether say O'Nien had a good game last Saturday, but I can post on whether club marketing campaigns re targeted well.
Perhaps sometimes it is an advantage not being with the same group each Saturday and hence not being exposed to the same "received wisdom"??
I think that's a fair and dignified response.
Well done old son!
I agree with you DevC and it is not a million miles away from what I was suggesting
I'm not sure that 'we're going to be crap' reached the wider world any more effectively than 'hey come and support us' does, Dev. I had about five years off from buying a ST because I just did not have the spare cash and I think that might be the case for lots of people. Despite Bucks being seen as 'affluent'...I think you have to be very keen or just love match-day to make an effort to pay to see League Two or even League One footy...which often does not appeal to those demanding Premier League entertainment or the oval ball...and can be a struggle for those who do want to come. I suspect that until we can either be pushing for the Championship from the top of League One, or are regulars at Wembley for one thing of another, we will continue to struggle to attract more bodies to AP.
@Wendoverman I think that's definitely a point a lot of us overlook, having the readies available.
I can't envisage a scenario now whereas £300 or so couldn't be found for my main leisure activity, but I guess life can change fairly quickly.
I'd say watching us at times over the last decade is only bearable through a season ticket. My seat would be £12.70 a game on average. I certainly would baulk if I had to pay the matchday £22!
DevC There is a lot of truth in what you say the majority of football 'customers' don't particularly care about the ownership of their club but I don't think we should lock the gates just yet as someone who attends every home game i see lot of good things are happening at AP I'm seeing a lot more pitch side advertising, the volunteers are doing an excellent job and the GA/AH combination works well yes there's always more that can be done but we've got a 5year plan let's stick to it
Actually I agree with you. I think the team running the club at the moment is strong.
Not sure I give a huge weight to five year plans in any business, certainly one not as fast moving as football, but I think they are getting much more right than wrong.
Things will change though, somewhere tonight perhaps a chairman somewhere is thinking that what his club really needs is a young manager good at building team spirit (maybe that chairman lives in Swindon) and maybe the next manager will not prove as effective. Sooner or later we will have a bad season or two. Not totally convinced we have the resilience in our model to ride that. But maybe I am just feeling a little down this evening!
As another no-longer-local fan, I must admit I hear a lot of 'well they're doing really well for the position their in' when I return home from people who used to be occasional attendees.
I get the impression that a lot of locals first and often only source of information about with Wycombe comes through the BFP who always seem to concentrate on Ainsworth's 'the spirit and the struggle' message which leaves the impression of a team that are doing well but can only get worse.
It may be that a little change in rhetoric, with a bit more concentration on building to the future, could be a good ploy in attracting a few more floaters without actually changing any plans.
Game , set and match FallenFlyer
@DevC we came within the width of a crossbar of going out of the football league as a trust-owned club less than two years ago. When you say "sooner or later we will have a bad season" do you mean worse than that?
A big problem with the home attendances is the collapse of the community scheme. WWFC are not in the primary schools. We used to be in every primary school in High Wycombe. Saturday morning clubs, after school clubs, marquee in the car park and half time penalties involving local youth football. I often coached on a Saturday morning 70 kids, 30 wearing the quarters. The current scheme or lack off is rubbish.
We damn nearly didn't survive that season, Eric.
Personally I think it's all about the football. For all the arguments about marketing/sub-texts about expectations we are still capable of attracting floating Wycombe supporters to the 'bigger' games. The trouble is that when they come along the football is invariably uninspiring. (It was an unwritten law a few years ago that every time we ran a 'kid a quid' promotion it would be a dire game so things don't change that much).
Because the football isn't great at home (usually) we also don't get that buzz in the town when people talk excitedly about Saturday's game at work/school on the Monday and people feel they're missing out. (Actually I wonder with the prevelance of football on TV and- particularly this year with the travails of Chelsea and Man U - hilarious as it is - most of the talk is about that).
In the past, when we've had the quantum leaps in attendances (Lee, Kelman, O'Neill) we have managed to mix success with a thrilling style of football.
We don't have that (yet) so I think the best we can hope for is maintaining current levels of support for the foreseeable.
But also be thankful for that as it could have been a lot worse.
And as GA gets more experienced and confident you never know we may develop into an exciting AND successful team
Bit late, but thanks @bluntphil
It's simple really: if the football is perceived to be a bit sh*t then some people are just not interested. Plus it's £22 for the casual adult to get in. So the "maths" is:
L2 standard football x £22 x crap weather = "I'll stay at home and/or take the kids/missus/partner/dog/etc out or just watch Jeff on Sky"
Attendances only go up when we get a lot of away fans - this would increase in L1.
What the answer is - God only knows. But I do know we have to get out of this league to stand any chance of increasing attendances (and playing standards and more away fans.....) - you are not going to find an extra 1000 fans while we are in L2.
@ReadingMarginalista - I know a lot of people who would have been quite happy at Booker. You are only speaking from your non league point of view with those that didn't want the club to move forward. Look at Chesterfield, Shrewsbury, Brighton, Reading etc I'm sure those clubs all wished that they were still playing in their old toilets of grounds.
But Adams Park isn't anywhere near as crap as the old grounds of those clubs you mention Reading.
Did anyone ever explain how being a tenant, and thus paying rent to play in a stadium we wouldn't fill to even 1/6 of capacity, and getting no income from the surrounding facilities, would ever "move us forward"?
Obviously beyond the random pipe dream of Hayes lashing cash in, and somehow we'd climb a couple of divisons and then magic 20,000 crowds?