The sacking of Terry Brown is a very interesting one. Not surprising however with Margate deep in relegation trouble.
When Margate appointed Terry Brown it raised quite a few eyebrows and it put down a marker that the club were going to make a real push for the National League (as it is now). However, things haven't gone according to plan at all and Brown has paid the price. Money doesn't necessarily buy success.
"things haven't gone according to plan at all" - well they have to a degree in that Brown managed to get them promoted last season into the National League South.
His reported behaviour and manner of his exit from the club were strongly suggestive that Mr Bull may have been suffering some form of stress/mental illness at the time. Without full knowledge of the facts, any criticism seems to me inappropriate in this case
So, without full knowledge of the facts, you suggest on a public forum that he might have been suffering some form of mental illness, but say people shouldn't criticise him for the manner of his exit. Cute.
There is nothing shameful about stress/depression or mental illness, (arguably unlesss it has been caused by midless hoovering of drugs). it will happen at some point of our lives to a substantial proportion of us. Before cricising people for their actions, in any walk of life, i believe we have an obligation to assess whether there is any evidence of that being a contributor to their actions. Simples.
I think Nikki Bull got fed up playing football at Wycombe Wanderers and decided to leave. Much like loads of people do in loads of jobs and loads of companies.
It might have had an element of stress, depression or illness but equally it might not. To assume is the worst crime in this instance.
While there may be nothing shameful about stress, depression or mental illness, most human beings would rather not have their name arbitrarily and purely speculatively linked to it on the internet for the rest of eternity. It can have knock on effects, such as making it more difficult to get a job in the future. I'd imagine you wouldn't be overly pleased if Google's first suggestion for your name was "mentally ill".
For the first time since running this forum, I'm considering permanently deleting a thread. Show of hands?
I think the thread has got out of hand, but the point of not being too quick to judge people is actually a valid one. Without the speculation that an individual might be suffering, all you are left with is the condemnation of the individual's behaviour without possible mitigation. So do we simply delete all judgemental posts?
this thread has taken an unexpected turn since last viewed.
Mental health remains a significant contributor to human suffering but due to historic stigma attached it is a largely hidden one. In truth though it is no different to physical diseases and afflictions. It is there, it will affect many of us at some stage of our lives, sadly it seems to be abnormally highly prevalent in current and ex-professional sportsmen.
for mental health to be addressed properly, society as a whole needs to be honest and open in discussing it. The issue needs to follow a similar path to homosexuality's path over the last 20 years or so (in life if not in professional sport) - it needs to cease being a guilty secret locked away in dark cupboards and be accepted as being a normal part of some human beings lives.
Success will be when we can discuss mental health issues as openly and freely as for example a broken leg or a pulled hamstring or flu or cancer. This thread suggests we have some way to go yet. There should be no stigma in suffering from mental health issues than any physical illness. Men in particular are uncomfortable with this issue, and hence when we see a friend or family member or acquaintance behaving slightly oddly or appearing a little down, our instinct is to run away or suggest he "pulls himself together" rather than provide the support he/she may need. Clark Carlisle has done some excellent work in raising awareness of this issue.
Around the time of his departure, Nikki Bull's behaviour became odd and unpredictable.
To anybody who knows anything about mental health, there are a number of elements in this article that raise warning flags. http://www.wycombe.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=299310
My point was intended to be a very clear one. I have no idea whether or not Nikki Bull was suffering from a form of depression or stress at the time of his departure. But there is enough evidence to suggest he may have been. My point is and was that where there is a reasonable possibility of a mental health condition playing a part in human beings behaviour, then criticism along the lines of "For what he did at Wycombe after Oxford game he is still a twat " and "Got no time for Bull after walking out on the club in a childish strop" without being in possession of the full facts is ignorant and unfair.
I intend no slight on Mr Bull in so saying. I look back on two episodes on my life where I now believe it is fairly clear that had I visited a doctor, I would have been diagnosed with a stress related condition. I didn't go, perhaps through fear and a sense of being a shame caused by society's stigma. Fortunately with help from those dear to me and a change in underlying circumstances I pulled my way out of the situation. others, including very nearly Clarke Carlisle, including tragically Robert Enke, have not been so lucky. So I make no apology whatsoever, grovelling or otherwise, for raising mental health issues as a possible explanator for erratic behaviour and issuing a plea for understanding.
finally as for me, for some strange reason I must derive some enjoyment posting here or I wouldn't do so. As a freely available site, I will continue to do so, when the mood strikes me.... With one exception. This site belongs I understand to Dr Congo. As such we are all his guests. If he would prefer me not to post here, he is entitled to have his wish.
Mr @DevC Are you aware that for quite a few years Nikki Bull has run a property devolopment business alongside his football career ?
This second income is highly likely to dwarf what his salary was at WWFC, hence the unusual reason he could just walk away from his contract.
The fact he wasn't enjoying his football, not best pleased that his friend Gary Waddock
got the sack, was hoping his good friend Terry Brown (who was using Nikki's sponsor box, at Adams park) would get the job.
If you were no longer enjoying your job, surely it would make sense to devote more time to the business that brings home the bacon ?
The fact you have cast aspirations on the possibility of Mr Bull suffering from mental health, with absolutely no facts to back up your allegations, shows you in a very poor light.
Certainly there was speculation along the lines suggested by DevC at the time on the old Gasroom and nobody considered deleting that or (to my knowledge) suggested it was an unfit topic for discussion.
I'm really not sure about 'casting aspirations' though...
No - an odd word in the context! Aspersions possibly? Great to hear such enlightened comment from @DevC - whatever the truth behind Nikki Bull's disillusionment/despondency at the time.
@ DevC . I assume you are not a psychologist or a psychiatrist . I agree with all of what you say abut mental illness , the stigma , the need for understanding and the rest . What I fail to agree with is that you seem to have almost "diagnosed" Mr Bull by his actions . I have to say there may have been a host of reasons including the perfectly normal emotion of disappointment in the council not backing Hayes (to which at the time I seem to remember he clearly suggested that it could be the beginning of the end ) or simply the disappointment to what was happening on the pitch . I do not think Nikki Bull would appreciate what is on this thread whether there is truth in it or not . I could of course be mistaken and you do have a qualification which enables you to diagnose mental illness without assessing a patient in depth and in a face to face situation? . My understanding is a mental health professional would not even attempt diagnosis without this setting
He was today given the job to the end of the season, I gave up halfway through the debate on his mental state. At the end of the day it's none of my business and I don't care anyway
Comments
Good luck to him. Put in a good shift for us but he could have some interesting issues when he wants commitment and desire from his players
The sacking of Terry Brown is a very interesting one. Not surprising however with Margate deep in relegation trouble.
When Margate appointed Terry Brown it raised quite a few eyebrows and it put down a marker that the club were going to make a real push for the National League (as it is now). However, things haven't gone according to plan at all and Brown has paid the price. Money doesn't necessarily buy success.
For what he did at Wycombe after Oxford game he is still a twat, but was a good (not great) keeper for us so I wish him well
"things haven't gone according to plan at all" - well they have to a degree in that Brown managed to get them promoted last season into the National League South.
Got no time for Bull after walking out on the club in a childish strop when his mate Waddock was rightly sacked.
His reported behaviour and manner of his exit from the club were strongly suggestive that Mr Bull may have been suffering some form of stress/mental illness at the time. Without full knowledge of the facts, any criticism seems to me inappropriate in this case
So, without full knowledge of the facts, you suggest on a public forum that he might have been suffering some form of mental illness, but say people shouldn't criticise him for the manner of his exit. Cute.
Dev if i remember right he said something like "I've fallen out of love with football" after Waddock went.
There is nothing shameful about stress/depression or mental illness, (arguably unlesss it has been caused by midless hoovering of drugs). it will happen at some point of our lives to a substantial proportion of us. Before cricising people for their actions, in any walk of life, i believe we have an obligation to assess whether there is any evidence of that being a contributor to their actions. Simples.
I think Nikki Bull got fed up playing football at Wycombe Wanderers and decided to leave. Much like loads of people do in loads of jobs and loads of companies.
It might have had an element of stress, depression or illness but equally it might not. To assume is the worst crime in this instance.
Not assuming Righty, raising the possibility that it may have been there and suggesting criticism should be tempered without knowing the full facts.
Irony not your strong point, is it?
While there may be nothing shameful about stress, depression or mental illness, most human beings would rather not have their name arbitrarily and purely speculatively linked to it on the internet for the rest of eternity. It can have knock on effects, such as making it more difficult to get a job in the future. I'd imagine you wouldn't be overly pleased if Google's first suggestion for your name was "mentally ill".
For the first time since running this forum, I'm considering permanently deleting a thread. Show of hands?
Might be a good idea to also suspend/ban the originator of this suggestion
I think the thread has got out of hand, but the point of not being too quick to judge people is actually a valid one. Without the speculation that an individual might be suffering, all you are left with is the condemnation of the individual's behaviour without possible mitigation. So do we simply delete all judgemental posts?
How about asking Mr DevC for a full grovelling apology, but rather different to the selfindulgent resignations he used to issue on the former Gasroom.
Delete it! Utter speculation and slanderous.
Nothing I can see on this thread is slanderous! Reasonably adult discussion.
The gasroom 2.0 would be significantly worse without Dev's contribution. I don't know why he puts up with the constant and unnecessary personal abuse.
Can you link to some examples of the personal abuse?
Delete and a wrist slap for Dev
this thread has taken an unexpected turn since last viewed.
Mental health remains a significant contributor to human suffering but due to historic stigma attached it is a largely hidden one. In truth though it is no different to physical diseases and afflictions. It is there, it will affect many of us at some stage of our lives, sadly it seems to be abnormally highly prevalent in current and ex-professional sportsmen.
for mental health to be addressed properly, society as a whole needs to be honest and open in discussing it. The issue needs to follow a similar path to homosexuality's path over the last 20 years or so (in life if not in professional sport) - it needs to cease being a guilty secret locked away in dark cupboards and be accepted as being a normal part of some human beings lives.
Success will be when we can discuss mental health issues as openly and freely as for example a broken leg or a pulled hamstring or flu or cancer. This thread suggests we have some way to go yet. There should be no stigma in suffering from mental health issues than any physical illness. Men in particular are uncomfortable with this issue, and hence when we see a friend or family member or acquaintance behaving slightly oddly or appearing a little down, our instinct is to run away or suggest he "pulls himself together" rather than provide the support he/she may need. Clark Carlisle has done some excellent work in raising awareness of this issue.
Around the time of his departure, Nikki Bull's behaviour became odd and unpredictable.
To anybody who knows anything about mental health, there are a number of elements in this article that raise warning flags. http://www.wycombe.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=299310
My point was intended to be a very clear one. I have no idea whether or not Nikki Bull was suffering from a form of depression or stress at the time of his departure. But there is enough evidence to suggest he may have been. My point is and was that where there is a reasonable possibility of a mental health condition playing a part in human beings behaviour, then criticism along the lines of "For what he did at Wycombe after Oxford game he is still a twat " and "Got no time for Bull after walking out on the club in a childish strop" without being in possession of the full facts is ignorant and unfair.
I intend no slight on Mr Bull in so saying. I look back on two episodes on my life where I now believe it is fairly clear that had I visited a doctor, I would have been diagnosed with a stress related condition. I didn't go, perhaps through fear and a sense of being a shame caused by society's stigma. Fortunately with help from those dear to me and a change in underlying circumstances I pulled my way out of the situation. others, including very nearly Clarke Carlisle, including tragically Robert Enke, have not been so lucky. So I make no apology whatsoever, grovelling or otherwise, for raising mental health issues as a possible explanator for erratic behaviour and issuing a plea for understanding.
finally as for me, for some strange reason I must derive some enjoyment posting here or I wouldn't do so. As a freely available site, I will continue to do so, when the mood strikes me.... With one exception. This site belongs I understand to Dr Congo. As such we are all his guests. If he would prefer me not to post here, he is entitled to have his wish.
Excellent post Dev, I fully agree with everything you've written.
@DevC Very good post. I wanted to write something similar myself, but couldn't get the wording quite right.
Mr @DevC Are you aware that for quite a few years Nikki Bull has run a property devolopment business alongside his football career ?
This second income is highly likely to dwarf what his salary was at WWFC, hence the unusual reason he could just walk away from his contract.
The fact he wasn't enjoying his football, not best pleased that his friend Gary Waddock
got the sack, was hoping his good friend Terry Brown (who was using Nikki's sponsor box, at Adams park) would get the job.
If you were no longer enjoying your job, surely it would make sense to devote more time to the business that brings home the bacon ?
The fact you have cast aspirations on the possibility of Mr Bull suffering from mental health, with absolutely no facts to back up your allegations, shows you in a very poor light.
I'm with you ChasHarps,Dev is boring me now.
Certainly there was speculation along the lines suggested by DevC at the time on the old Gasroom and nobody considered deleting that or (to my knowledge) suggested it was an unfit topic for discussion.
I'm really not sure about 'casting aspirations' though...
No - an odd word in the context! Aspersions possibly? Great to hear such enlightened comment from @DevC - whatever the truth behind Nikki Bull's disillusionment/despondency at the time.
@ DevC . I assume you are not a psychologist or a psychiatrist . I agree with all of what you say abut mental illness , the stigma , the need for understanding and the rest . What I fail to agree with is that you seem to have almost "diagnosed" Mr Bull by his actions . I have to say there may have been a host of reasons including the perfectly normal emotion of disappointment in the council not backing Hayes (to which at the time I seem to remember he clearly suggested that it could be the beginning of the end ) or simply the disappointment to what was happening on the pitch . I do not think Nikki Bull would appreciate what is on this thread whether there is truth in it or not . I could of course be mistaken and you do have a qualification which enables you to diagnose mental illness without assessing a patient in depth and in a face to face situation? . My understanding is a mental health professional would not even attempt diagnosis without this setting
He was today given the job to the end of the season, I gave up halfway through the debate on his mental state. At the end of the day it's none of my business and I don't care anyway