Whilst not feeling much sympathy for Mr Cardoza, I'm with robin in empathising with the Northampton fans and hoping that the situation is not terminal for the club. It's thought provoking, though, that things have been allowed to develop in this way despite Northampton Town Supporters’ Trust having a seat on the football club board.
You really are something richmayes. How on earth do you know they spent any of the Councils money on players or wages? To glory in anyone's misfortune is not the sign of a true football supporter.
its obvious, they have a half built stand and the chairman has run out of money basically so they are up shit creek and its nothing more than they deserve. Steve Hayes was battered at our club for allow debts to rack up but its ok if Northampton do it.
The whole situation is very dodgy indeed, and from a brief browse over on their forum they really don't appear to be as alarmed as one would expect them to be.
It doesn't sounds good at the top level and I do feel sorry for the Northampton fans. I do though also see why they don't seem that bothered on their forums. Football League clubs just don't go to the wall in recent times. Something always saves them. Local businesses suffer, players wait a while longer to get paid and directors walk away scott free.
Based on recent news I do think they've had a competitive advantage against other clubs that don't run these levels of debts but they aren't alone. Until a club does go bust plenty will continue to sail as close to the wind as they can.
I've wondered a few times what would happen if football debts weren't preferential. If players had to fight for money with local businesses would they play for the club? Would this actually help the finaincial plight in an odd way.
I don't want a football club to go bust but this kind of debt building followed by an adminstration reset at 10p in the pound can't continue.
@richmayes999 "It's obvious", is not a statement of fact you odious creature. So unless you have some irrefutable piece of evidence, then would it not be wiser to keep those comments off this board? That was very nearly us only a few short years ago, a debt that couldn't be served, built up on over spending on players and their wages. Can you not see the comparison?
I too have sympathy with their fans. Fans very rarely have control over such issues. To wish that they "go under" is such a short sighted view, it doesn't fall far short of being totally blind. In case you hadn't realised we need clubs like Northampton Town, so that we have a league and opposition each week to play against! If you have such feelings, then please save them for the only club in the top tiers of football that deserve such a misfortune, namely those cuckoos in North Bucks.
I hope they manage to come through it alright. As @Right_in_the_Middle says I also for the Northampton fans, we might have lost our club a few years ago if it was not for the miracle down in Torquay. There is only one club I would ever wish financial ruin on The franchise & Akinfenwa response when asked if he would ever play for them was brilliant
While I agree with virtually all you say re Northampton (and other ailing clubs including Torquay as it happens), just worth correcting one point.
We didnt nearly go bust because of a debt built up during Hayes time that couldn't be serviced. Hayes wasnt asking for his money back. Businesses do not fail becuase they hold hostoric debt on their balance sheet. They fail because either those holding the debt ask for it back or because there is a continuing difference between income and expenditure that no one is now prepared to lend to cover.
We nearly went bust because once the cash injection from hayes ceased, we couldnt adjust our spending downwards quick enough to pay the day to day current costs from current revenues - (or arguably more accurately as we adjusted spending downwards, income fell more rapidly than expected leaving an ongoing gap that we struggled to breach).
If we're going to be really pendantic going bust is down to a lack of cash rather than current costs, current revenues or historic debt. Losses don't lead to bankrupcy in themself. Lack of liquid funds to pay people that ask for it does. Not paying HMRC is probably the biggest reason and most of the debt they are owed is nothing to do with P&L.
Its not pedantic, its an important differential. Cash is all that matters - not the balance sheet and historic loans - unless those historic loans now have to be paid back. WWFC problem was that current expenses were higher than current revenues and nobody was any longer able or willing to put in cash to bridge the gap. As costs were cut, the product on the field deteriorated and income went down just as fast.
HMRC is but one of those who may need to be paid - and actually you can usually agree a deferred payment plan with them for a bit. I have no idea why you think amounts due to HMRC has nothing to do with P+L.
@DevC HMRC debt is normally either VAT or PAYE. VAT is all collected on behalf of HMRC and doesn't hit the P&L at all. PAYE is tax and National Insurance contributions where only the employers element is a cost to the business. The rest is merely a collection of deductions from salary. That's why I said HMRC debts have nothing to do with P&L.
On your other point cash is all that matters but you only used the word once and that was on the context of an injection rather than as an amount to pay debts. You must have just assumed.
they have collected tax from players but not payed it to HMRC as all football clubs do when in the sh*t ........ Southend were another club who used to do this on a regular basis.
RITM. You have a point with VAT. PAYE is a direct result of the salary bill which the club pays to players and staff which in turn is usually by far the biggest cost of a football club. To say it isn't related to P+L is nonsense, I'm afraid. The HMRC payment is the obvious first resort for a football club when cash is tight, you cant not pay your staff, often you cant not pay key suppliers, HMRC on the other hand can wait a bit
Name me a Premier/League club that isn't funded by an individual or group of individuals. The likes of Chelsea and Man City would go under if their owners pulled out as would the lower Premier Clubs such as Watford and Bournemouth.
We would also be in trouble without the receipts from the share scheme
Hi DevC. Tax and employees National Insurance works in a similar way to VAT. The employer collects it via a salary deduction and pays it on to HMRC. It is NOT a business cost.
On a more general point on the original post I wonder how many football club winding up petitions come from HMRC? I appreciate it will be a large debt but I wonder how jumpy they are about football preference rules. Normally HMRC are top of list to be paid on receivership but that's not the case in football. Leaving a payment to HMRC is folly for any business but football clubs should be extra cautious.
Sorry Righty. You are wrong.
PAYE IS a business cost. The business pays the employee say £100 gross. It may then deduct say £20 PAYE/NI and he takes home £80. Accounting is £100 cost to P+L. The business is just a tax collecting agent collecting tax owed by the employee to the Government.
HMRC is an obvious large creditor of football clubs a) due to payroll being the biggest cost b) about the only big cash flow that can be delayed if cash is short.
The days of HMRC being at the top of list in an insolvency finished many years ago now. They rank no higher than any other creditor these days (and lower than some).
Delaying payment to HMRC is not folly at all - if you haven't got cash to pay all amounts due that month, it is frankly just about the first option when looking for who not to pay.
Wrong on all counts - typical RITM post!
@robin said:
I hate seeing any club in their position mostly for the fans,how would we feel if we were in their shoes?
In case you've got a very short memory we have been (still are) in a dire financial situation. Thankfully we are now seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. However, don't recall any Cobblers offering words of support or sympathy.
The big question is - why would a council lend a L2 club 10 mil to build a stand!!! Who votes for these people. And why would a L2 board want to borrow that amount of money ?? They'll never get a return on that investment (seeing how they couldn't fill their poxy ground to start with). Are they all crazy? Has the world finally gone completely MAD.
I can see them going into Admin because of the 10 million pound debt, maybe they will then learn that paying players 3/4k a week in league 2 isn't the way to get the job done as we have proved to an extent over the last season and abit.
Hello again DevC. I can actually see what you are saying and now follow your logic. You've actually said exactly the same as me apart from one key point. The is the cost to the business. It is the contracted salary. The tax and NI element is irrelevant as it is owed by the employee and based on their particular circumstances. The company is just the collecting agent.
We're so close it's tangible. But at least I follow your argument. Thanks for taking the time.
In recent insolvencies I've been involved in the HMRC has still be a preferential creditor and getting paid before suppliers. Maybe that's changed.
Looking forward to seeing what happens at Northampton though. Always thought their ground move was based on dodgy financial grounds. Let's see how they get away with it.
Comments
I hate seeing any club in their position mostly for the fans,how would we feel if we were in their shoes?
good riddance, they spend fortunes on players they cannot afford I hope they go under.
Cock.....and you say you work at the club.
Whilst not feeling much sympathy for Mr Cardoza, I'm with robin in empathising with the Northampton fans and hoping that the situation is not terminal for the club. It's thought provoking, though, that things have been allowed to develop in this way despite Northampton Town Supporters’ Trust having a seat on the football club board.
they 'MAY' have spent money provided to them by the council on player wages and transfer fees, sorry but if we did that everybody would be up in arms.
Comment edited.
You really are something richmayes. How on earth do you know they spent any of the Councils money on players or wages? To glory in anyone's misfortune is not the sign of a true football supporter.
its obvious, they have a half built stand and the chairman has run out of money basically so they are up shit creek and its nothing more than they deserve. Steve Hayes was battered at our club for allow debts to rack up but its ok if Northampton do it.
The whole situation is very dodgy indeed, and from a brief browse over on their forum they really don't appear to be as alarmed as one would expect them to be.
It doesn't sounds good at the top level and I do feel sorry for the Northampton fans. I do though also see why they don't seem that bothered on their forums. Football League clubs just don't go to the wall in recent times. Something always saves them. Local businesses suffer, players wait a while longer to get paid and directors walk away scott free.
Based on recent news I do think they've had a competitive advantage against other clubs that don't run these levels of debts but they aren't alone. Until a club does go bust plenty will continue to sail as close to the wind as they can.
I've wondered a few times what would happen if football debts weren't preferential. If players had to fight for money with local businesses would they play for the club? Would this actually help the finaincial plight in an odd way.
I don't want a football club to go bust but this kind of debt building followed by an adminstration reset at 10p in the pound can't continue.
Their level of debt is miniscule compared with the amount Pompey owed and they have come out of it and are on the way back up.
@richmayes999 "It's obvious", is not a statement of fact you odious creature. So unless you have some irrefutable piece of evidence, then would it not be wiser to keep those comments off this board? That was very nearly us only a few short years ago, a debt that couldn't be served, built up on over spending on players and their wages. Can you not see the comparison?
I too have sympathy with their fans. Fans very rarely have control over such issues. To wish that they "go under" is such a short sighted view, it doesn't fall far short of being totally blind. In case you hadn't realised we need clubs like Northampton Town, so that we have a league and opposition each week to play against! If you have such feelings, then please save them for the only club in the top tiers of football that deserve such a misfortune, namely those cuckoos in North Bucks.
I hope they manage to come through it alright. As @Right_in_the_Middle says I also for the Northampton fans, we might have lost our club a few years ago if it was not for the miracle down in Torquay. There is only one club I would ever wish financial ruin on The franchise & Akinfenwa response when asked if he would ever play for them was brilliant
While I agree with virtually all you say re Northampton (and other ailing clubs including Torquay as it happens), just worth correcting one point.
We didnt nearly go bust because of a debt built up during Hayes time that couldn't be serviced. Hayes wasnt asking for his money back. Businesses do not fail becuase they hold hostoric debt on their balance sheet. They fail because either those holding the debt ask for it back or because there is a continuing difference between income and expenditure that no one is now prepared to lend to cover.
We nearly went bust because once the cash injection from hayes ceased, we couldnt adjust our spending downwards quick enough to pay the day to day current costs from current revenues - (or arguably more accurately as we adjusted spending downwards, income fell more rapidly than expected leaving an ongoing gap that we struggled to breach).
If we're going to be really pendantic going bust is down to a lack of cash rather than current costs, current revenues or historic debt. Losses don't lead to bankrupcy in themself. Lack of liquid funds to pay people that ask for it does. Not paying HMRC is probably the biggest reason and most of the debt they are owed is nothing to do with P&L.
Its not pedantic, its an important differential. Cash is all that matters - not the balance sheet and historic loans - unless those historic loans now have to be paid back. WWFC problem was that current expenses were higher than current revenues and nobody was any longer able or willing to put in cash to bridge the gap. As costs were cut, the product on the field deteriorated and income went down just as fast.
HMRC is but one of those who may need to be paid - and actually you can usually agree a deferred payment plan with them for a bit. I have no idea why you think amounts due to HMRC has nothing to do with P+L.
@richmayes999 If you really do work in the club shop, then you should be more careful what you post on here.
@DevC HMRC debt is normally either VAT or PAYE. VAT is all collected on behalf of HMRC and doesn't hit the P&L at all. PAYE is tax and National Insurance contributions where only the employers element is a cost to the business. The rest is merely a collection of deductions from salary. That's why I said HMRC debts have nothing to do with P&L.
On your other point cash is all that matters but you only used the word once and that was on the context of an injection rather than as an amount to pay debts. You must have just assumed.
I get the impression richmayes is quite an angry person.
they have collected tax from players but not payed it to HMRC as all football clubs do when in the sh*t ........ Southend were another club who used to do this on a regular basis.
richmayes999 you are a tool, please go and find another forum to troll. If you work for the club as you claim then i'm the pope,tosser!
RITM. You have a point with VAT. PAYE is a direct result of the salary bill which the club pays to players and staff which in turn is usually by far the biggest cost of a football club. To say it isn't related to P+L is nonsense, I'm afraid. The HMRC payment is the obvious first resort for a football club when cash is tight, you cant not pay your staff, often you cant not pay key suppliers, HMRC on the other hand can wait a bit
Name me a Premier/League club that isn't funded by an individual or group of individuals. The likes of Chelsea and Man City would go under if their owners pulled out as would the lower Premier Clubs such as Watford and Bournemouth.
We would also be in trouble without the receipts from the share scheme
Hi DevC. Tax and employees National Insurance works in a similar way to VAT. The employer collects it via a salary deduction and pays it on to HMRC. It is NOT a business cost.
On a more general point on the original post I wonder how many football club winding up petitions come from HMRC? I appreciate it will be a large debt but I wonder how jumpy they are about football preference rules. Normally HMRC are top of list to be paid on receivership but that's not the case in football. Leaving a payment to HMRC is folly for any business but football clubs should be extra cautious.
Sorry Righty. You are wrong.
PAYE IS a business cost. The business pays the employee say £100 gross. It may then deduct say £20 PAYE/NI and he takes home £80. Accounting is £100 cost to P+L. The business is just a tax collecting agent collecting tax owed by the employee to the Government.
HMRC is an obvious large creditor of football clubs a) due to payroll being the biggest cost b) about the only big cash flow that can be delayed if cash is short.
The days of HMRC being at the top of list in an insolvency finished many years ago now. They rank no higher than any other creditor these days (and lower than some).
Delaying payment to HMRC is not folly at all - if you haven't got cash to pay all amounts due that month, it is frankly just about the first option when looking for who not to pay.
Wrong on all counts - typical RITM post!
In case you've got a very short memory we have been (still are) in a dire financial situation. Thankfully we are now seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. However, don't recall any Cobblers offering words of support or sympathy.
The big question is - why would a council lend a L2 club 10 mil to build a stand!!! Who votes for these people. And why would a L2 board want to borrow that amount of money ?? They'll never get a return on that investment (seeing how they couldn't fill their poxy ground to start with). Are they all crazy? Has the world finally gone completely MAD.
I can see them going into Admin because of the 10 million pound debt, maybe they will then learn that paying players 3/4k a week in league 2 isn't the way to get the job done as we have proved to an extent over the last season and abit.
Hello again DevC. I can actually see what you are saying and now follow your logic. You've actually said exactly the same as me apart from one key point. The is the cost to the business. It is the contracted salary. The tax and NI element is irrelevant as it is owed by the employee and based on their particular circumstances. The company is just the collecting agent.
We're so close it's tangible. But at least I follow your argument. Thanks for taking the time.
In recent insolvencies I've been involved in the HMRC has still be a preferential creditor and getting paid before suppliers. Maybe that's changed.
Looking forward to seeing what happens at Northampton though. Always thought their ground move was based on dodgy financial grounds. Let's see how they get away with it.
It's a bit sad to see the verbal abuse in here. I thought our fans were above all that.
Can't be too recent, righty. Law changed good 10 years ago.
Have a good weekend son