I’ll be devils advocate and say it’s not our business. They want money. We have access to funding. If he nicks it we can’t be responsible. Other people in football and financial institutions can make judgements about whether we can legally give him money.
Whatever the rights and wrongs or the greatness of the deal...it's us having a leaky roof, knackered cold water loos and no decent offerings in the kiosks while having 25 millon in one of those metal suitcases by the bins that has blown my.mind.
Reading FC don’t own the training ground it’s one of Yonngs companies, is my understanding, built within that last 5 years. The asset stripping was more in the stadium sale than this surely?
Football fans generally don’t think much beyond their latest result and that spawns stupid behaviour. How often is a team analysed as amazing or awful by Sky and others based on very recent results?! I think gloating is awful but it’s widespread in football culture and for whatever reason people seem to enjoy it.
Some people, and I think Wycombe have a lot of them, think long term about what football adds to their life. Beyond merely enjoying winning or sulking from losing it provides something to fall back on, a distraction from work, or other less enjoyable factors of life. It can also provide huge highs. Football and everything it entails is a huge part of our lives.
Understanding that beyond club allegiances we all fundamentally embrace similar things suggests that, even though some fans are idiots, we should protect the game and its assets and value all clubs. There’s no football match without an opposition. I think Wycombe has held values like this going back to amateur times and it’s an important part of our existence, whether or not other clubs have treated us in the same way.
Hear hear from me too. We can't base our attitude towards a club's prospective demise on it's worst supporters. Football means so much to so many, and I can't imagine how many people in the Reading area this would feel like the final straw for on top of whatever else they are dealing with (cost of living, perhaps relationship issues, bereavements, health issues).
It may or may not have been said already but I've been thinking about this a lot:
The way football is going, we will all one day be owned by investors with a lot of money. The competition is tough and bars are consistently being raised. This just appears to be our time. Ultimately, competition can only improve everything - from infrastructure to technical ability of the athletes we love to watch.
Reading do not HAVE TO sell their training ground, they offered it to us, and they still don't have to.
If they choose to sell, it is because the £25million will benefit SOMEBODY. Whether that helps their club, their incompetent owner, or neither for that matter, with the utmost respect to their wonderful football club, IT IS NOT OF OUR CONCERN.
Whilst I feel every ounce of sympathy for Reading and their supporters, their owner (coupled with decision making from the EFL) has run them into the ground. Not Wycombe Wanderers.
We have suffered similar financial struggles in the past, and may do again in the future - nobody bailed us out. None of us know the details of the deal (definition below).
"an agreement entered into by two or more parties for their mutual benefit, especially in a business or political context".
Reading are obviously in a dire and desperate situation. If the money from this agreement can see them through the season at least, and prevent an inevitable points deduction (coupled with the unthinkable, yet serious possibility of relegation to League 2 as a result ) - we may well be remembered as the club that SAVED Reading Football Club.
The press releases from the respective clubs give the impression Wycombe Wanderers FC are negotiating with Reading FC. We know for certain Reading FC are not negotiating the sale of Bearwood Park because they do not own it, so that immediately reduces the credibility of both the statements. You might well be correct that Feliciana are going to be the beneficial owners of the facility, then why is this being portrayed in the club press statement as if WWFC is doing the buying?
What is known about the deal is that a company owned by Dai Yongge will be the beneficiary of the proceeds, and that Dai Yongge is extremely reluctant to cover losses as the owner of Reading FC. You can make some sort of a judgement how much of the proceeds will go to Reading FC based on Mr Dai's track record.
Questions regarding sharing facilities, leasing back etc. will be a moot point if Reading cease to exist. On the evidence I have been able to digest today, I have to agree with many Reading fans' observation that we will contributing a considerable number of nails into their coffin. It is up to you and other individuals as to whether you are content with that.
To be clear, this isn’t a significant distinction. The training ground is owned by one of DY’s companies in exactly the same way that the football club is one of DY’s companies.
This is incorrect. In Wycombe’s case, Adams Park is owned by FALL which is entirely separate business. Rob Couhig, much to his dislike, does not own Adams Park.
As I understand it, the distinction is that if the money to buy the ground was paid to Reading FC, it would a lot harder for Yongge to trouser the money before it went to meet payroll and HMRC obligations. There are no such hurdles for Yongge to do that via the company that owns the training ground, whose liabilities would be far smaller.
For clarity I should say I can't see a compelling reason that WWFC needs the training facility (such as it exists at Bearwood anyway) and I am very worried that we will be saddled with an asset we cannot afford which will lead to problems in the future.
In 5 years time we may quite possibly be stuffed too. But it'll be nobody else's fault but ourselves. It won't be Derby's, it won't be Peterborough's, it won't be Reading's.
I think the whole system is buggered, and it is a crying shame. For me, the English football pyramid is the best thing about the entire world of sports.
They're fair points. Reading FC will be in dire straits with or without the sale of the training ground. The issue is simple - asset stripping. Taking money and assets out of football clubs with little or nothing in return. It might well be the case that a non-football club entity would buy the property off Dai Yongge for his asking price. The point as to why it is especially bad that another football club is doing that we are facilitating rogue owners like Yongge extracting hard cash from club assets. Every time a rogue owner gets away with doing this, it encourages other would be rogue owners to do the same elsewhere. That might be our club, it might be another. Football is never improved by giving these chancers even so much as an inch.
A comparison might be a government doing a deal with North Korea wondering why the money that @Kim_il_Swan promised to use to feed starving citizens is in fact going on adding a new wing to Ryongsong Residence and a snazzy new arsenal of ballistic missiles.
You're also quite right about there being no compelling business case for us to take on the costs of running such a vast training facility when our only likely co-tenants wouldn't be able to afford the bus fare to the front gate, never mind pay subs.
I won't post the letter for signatures because it obviously does not represent anything like a consensus view on here.
I speculate that the two clubs are putting out statements saying that the two clubs are negotiating because their owners are telling them to do that. An entity associated with Wycombe Wanderers is intending to buy the Bearwood facility where Reading train and their academy is based. I am sure Mr Couhig will not treat us the way Dai Yongge is treating Reading so I reckon we will know what the intentions for use and future funding of the facility are before the deal deadline which I believe is at the end of March.
What is less than clear to me, is who's money was used to build the training ground?
It was my understanding, talking to a couple of Reading fans before the game, that Yongge had financed it. Would that make it "his" anyway? I don't know.
Whilst well intentioned it is too early to support, critique or condemn anything that has gone before.
When we know what is going on the statement might 'We are delighted to have saved Reading, and appreciate their goodwill and best wishes', 'We condemn what has happened here and have sympathy for fans of Reading FC' or 'We are FUCKED, absolute bastards'. The scope is so large for outcomes.
Its only realistic user is Reading, and it has been offered as part of a package with Reading FC. It's the only thing of value left associated with the club (the stadium is essentially protected from development), after which the club is useless to Yongge. If it's not "asset stripping" then it certainly is extracting cash from assets that give value to the football club, to the detriment to the football club whose best interests Yongge has a fiduciary duty to uphold.
As I understand it Reading Fc own the company that owns the training ground. Yongge owns the company that (possibly through other companies) own Reading Fc. I believe Bearwood was built after Yongge took ownership of Reading. Not really asset stripping. In their current state Reading need cash more than they need a Premier League level training ground. Plainly Reading would be better off with a better owner than Yongge however.
Comments
I’ll be devils advocate and say it’s not our business. They want money. We have access to funding. If he nicks it we can’t be responsible. Other people in football and financial institutions can make judgements about whether we can legally give him money.
Open letters are always ridiculous aren't they though.
Whatever the rights and wrongs or the greatness of the deal...it's us having a leaky roof, knackered cold water loos and no decent offerings in the kiosks while having 25 millon in one of those metal suitcases by the bins that has blown my.mind.
Time will tell but I dare say Mr 25m will be in and out of Wycombe involvement quicker than an open letter is ridiculed.
I just can't get my head around why we need a 25 million training facility. It's like buying a Ferrari for an ostrich.
Reading FC don’t own the training ground it’s one of Yonngs companies, is my understanding, built within that last 5 years. The asset stripping was more in the stadium sale than this surely?
Football fans generally don’t think much beyond their latest result and that spawns stupid behaviour. How often is a team analysed as amazing or awful by Sky and others based on very recent results?! I think gloating is awful but it’s widespread in football culture and for whatever reason people seem to enjoy it.
Some people, and I think Wycombe have a lot of them, think long term about what football adds to their life. Beyond merely enjoying winning or sulking from losing it provides something to fall back on, a distraction from work, or other less enjoyable factors of life. It can also provide huge highs. Football and everything it entails is a huge part of our lives.
Understanding that beyond club allegiances we all fundamentally embrace similar things suggests that, even though some fans are idiots, we should protect the game and its assets and value all clubs. There’s no football match without an opposition. I think Wycombe has held values like this going back to amateur times and it’s an important part of our existence, whether or not other clubs have treated us in the same way.
Lomtadze looks like he'd prefer an open sandwich.
It will need to be a large suitcase to contain 14,282,851,650 Kazakhstani Tenge!
Well said that man.
Hear hear from me too. We can't base our attitude towards a club's prospective demise on it's worst supporters. Football means so much to so many, and I can't imagine how many people in the Reading area this would feel like the final straw for on top of whatever else they are dealing with (cost of living, perhaps relationship issues, bereavements, health issues).
It may or may not have been said already but I've been thinking about this a lot:
The way football is going, we will all one day be owned by investors with a lot of money. The competition is tough and bars are consistently being raised. This just appears to be our time. Ultimately, competition can only improve everything - from infrastructure to technical ability of the athletes we love to watch.
Reading do not HAVE TO sell their training ground, they offered it to us, and they still don't have to.
If they choose to sell, it is because the £25million will benefit SOMEBODY. Whether that helps their club, their incompetent owner, or neither for that matter, with the utmost respect to their wonderful football club, IT IS NOT OF OUR CONCERN.
Whilst I feel every ounce of sympathy for Reading and their supporters, their owner (coupled with decision making from the EFL) has run them into the ground. Not Wycombe Wanderers.
We have suffered similar financial struggles in the past, and may do again in the future - nobody bailed us out. None of us know the details of the deal (definition below).
"an agreement entered into by two or more parties for their mutual benefit, especially in a business or political context".
Reading are obviously in a dire and desperate situation. If the money from this agreement can see them through the season at least, and prevent an inevitable points deduction (coupled with the unthinkable, yet serious possibility of relegation to League 2 as a result ) - we may well be remembered as the club that SAVED Reading Football Club.
The press releases from the respective clubs give the impression Wycombe Wanderers FC are negotiating with Reading FC. We know for certain Reading FC are not negotiating the sale of Bearwood Park because they do not own it, so that immediately reduces the credibility of both the statements. You might well be correct that Feliciana are going to be the beneficial owners of the facility, then why is this being portrayed in the club press statement as if WWFC is doing the buying?
What is known about the deal is that a company owned by Dai Yongge will be the beneficiary of the proceeds, and that Dai Yongge is extremely reluctant to cover losses as the owner of Reading FC. You can make some sort of a judgement how much of the proceeds will go to Reading FC based on Mr Dai's track record.
Questions regarding sharing facilities, leasing back etc. will be a moot point if Reading cease to exist. On the evidence I have been able to digest today, I have to agree with many Reading fans' observation that we will contributing a considerable number of nails into their coffin. It is up to you and other individuals as to whether you are content with that.
To be clear, this isn’t a significant distinction. The training ground is owned by one of DY’s companies in exactly the same way that the football club is one of DY’s companies.
This is incorrect. In Wycombe’s case, Adams Park is owned by FALL which is entirely separate business. Rob Couhig, much to his dislike, does not own Adams Park.
As I understand it, the distinction is that if the money to buy the ground was paid to Reading FC, it would a lot harder for Yongge to trouser the money before it went to meet payroll and HMRC obligations. There are no such hurdles for Yongge to do that via the company that owns the training ground, whose liabilities would be far smaller.
@ReadingMarginalista it's also argued that without the sale of the training ground Reading are stuffed anyway.
It was widely reported they have a £1M funding gap coming at the end of March.
It was reported at least 4 days ago that Dai Yongge was interested in selling the training ground to raise funds.
Why can't it be the case that WWFC/Feliciana are NOT the bad guys? Could it be because that would mean Reading fans don't have someone else to blame?
For clarity I should say I can't see a compelling reason that WWFC needs the training facility (such as it exists at Bearwood anyway) and I am very worried that we will be saddled with an asset we cannot afford which will lead to problems in the future.
In 5 years time we may quite possibly be stuffed too. But it'll be nobody else's fault but ourselves. It won't be Derby's, it won't be Peterborough's, it won't be Reading's.
I think the whole system is buggered, and it is a crying shame. For me, the English football pyramid is the best thing about the entire world of sports.
They're fair points. Reading FC will be in dire straits with or without the sale of the training ground. The issue is simple - asset stripping. Taking money and assets out of football clubs with little or nothing in return. It might well be the case that a non-football club entity would buy the property off Dai Yongge for his asking price. The point as to why it is especially bad that another football club is doing that we are facilitating rogue owners like Yongge extracting hard cash from club assets. Every time a rogue owner gets away with doing this, it encourages other would be rogue owners to do the same elsewhere. That might be our club, it might be another. Football is never improved by giving these chancers even so much as an inch.
A comparison might be a government doing a deal with North Korea wondering why the money that @Kim_il_Swan promised to use to feed starving citizens is in fact going on adding a new wing to Ryongsong Residence and a snazzy new arsenal of ballistic missiles.
You're also quite right about there being no compelling business case for us to take on the costs of running such a vast training facility when our only likely co-tenants wouldn't be able to afford the bus fare to the front gate, never mind pay subs.
I won't post the letter for signatures because it obviously does not represent anything like a consensus view on here.
I speculate that the two clubs are putting out statements saying that the two clubs are negotiating because their owners are telling them to do that. An entity associated with Wycombe Wanderers is intending to buy the Bearwood facility where Reading train and their academy is based. I am sure Mr Couhig will not treat us the way Dai Yongge is treating Reading so I reckon we will know what the intentions for use and future funding of the facility are before the deal deadline which I believe is at the end of March.
What is less than clear to me, is who's money was used to build the training ground?
It was my understanding, talking to a couple of Reading fans before the game, that Yongge had financed it. Would that make it "his" anyway? I don't know.
I for one am certainly not going to this protest tonight or signing anything we have far too little information to draw conclusions .
I am concerned about my club primarily where the money is coming from but at the moment I need information.
That is exactly what i was getting at albeit clumsily worded.
I've often said that the trust keeping hold of the ground was magnificent foresight or we'd be at risk of all sorts.
Whilst well intentioned it is too early to support, critique or condemn anything that has gone before.
When we know what is going on the statement might 'We are delighted to have saved Reading, and appreciate their goodwill and best wishes', 'We condemn what has happened here and have sympathy for fans of Reading FC' or 'We are FUCKED, absolute bastards'. The scope is so large for outcomes.
How is this asset stripping if the training facility doesn’t even belong to the football club?
Its only realistic user is Reading, and it has been offered as part of a package with Reading FC. It's the only thing of value left associated with the club (the stadium is essentially protected from development), after which the club is useless to Yongge. If it's not "asset stripping" then it certainly is extracting cash from assets that give value to the football club, to the detriment to the football club whose best interests Yongge has a fiduciary duty to uphold.
Yongge and associates own the holding company that owns the training ground.
As I understand it Reading Fc own the company that owns the training ground. Yongge owns the company that (possibly through other companies) own Reading Fc. I believe Bearwood was built after Yongge took ownership of Reading. Not really asset stripping. In their current state Reading need cash more than they need a Premier League level training ground. Plainly Reading would be better off with a better owner than Yongge however.