I'm very sad too @Midlander that people are being banned from the ground. Saying the club can't afford to do this though suggests you think that the few pounds that moron might of given the club is more important than letting a drunk person with a pyrotechnic in to the ground. If you are really that stupid to turn up to a game in that state I can't imagine how much education would be needed and how any of it would get through.
Speaking as someone who is already going to fewer games due to morons making it less enjoyable I want that kind of idiot banned. Sorry if that offends
Let’s be clear: I’m not defending racists. But people, especially youngsters, make mistakes. I would rather people who have made one mistake and are remorseful are given second chances. Sorry if this makes me a bad person.
Maybe they are getting a second chance, perhaps less remorseful people get longer banning orders. Maybe its not a first offence just the first time they been caught or overheard. Its not at all clear, but racism isn't a mistake, and carrying pyrotechnics whilst not the same as racism requires a degree of pre-meditated behaviour, so not exactly a spur of the moment thing.
I'd be all for the club banning these people for say, a year, and then offering them a chance to provide a written apology and assurance they understand why it was wrong.
Racism is despicable, and people should be punished for it. But people do make mistakes and we should aim to rehabilitate those who commit racist offences, rather than permanently ostracise them.
@Midlander I agree that we all do things we regret, particularly when we were younger, but there are also levels of offence that require different levels of action
I would also add that we have a duty to make Adams Park a welcoming and non threatening environment for everybody regardless of race, gender, sexuality, nationality. I don't think the way to do this is by being lenient towards supporters who guilty of, for example, using racist language.
The clubs statement carefully omits to specify how long the racism ban is for.
Its not hard not to get banned - don't get so drunk you cant control your actions. I have successfully managed it every single game I have ever been to.
I suspect the current hard line stance is not unrelated to the deterioration in general behaviour by a small but significant minority. I can only echo Eric and say "good".
@Midlander - The club is LOSING money by allowing these thick morons to carry on their antisocial behaviour, not the reverse. I personally know three supporters that no longer go to away games because of these idiots.
I too have been put off going away, having only attended a couple of away games in the last year, whereas before I was going home and away for the last twenty five odd years. This has been a growing problem over the last few years which the club has been pretty slow to act upon. Inaction by the group of pensioners and youngsters who masquerade as stewards in the Valley End does not help - yes they can tell you to move off yellow lines, but don't have the will or bottle to deal with our hooligan element. The problem is they revel in their own little notorious world. It's not just confined to the young either, I have seen some in their 50's drunk and aggressive..one particular couple giving a steward the foulest of dogs abuse at half time at Solihull Moors because they couldn't get a half time alcoholic drink to top them up. But football fans represent all different strands of society I suppose. Going away is not the pleasure it used to be but as you get older you become less intolerant of moronic drunks.
If it's who I think it is from Solihull, then it was definitely a case of too much to drink. The guy is no trouble at all usually, definitely not one of the lot you usually demonise on here (although he tags on to that group sometimes).
Edit: that doesn't make whatever he said acceptable of course.
Anyone not going to Wycombe games because of the "morons/ abuse" has got to be using it as an excuse, or hasn't been to any of the other 91 grounds, as we're still one of the most "family" atmospheres, home or away.
@Username I'm not sure it is just an excuse. Whilst on the whole I've found the behaviour of some of our fans at most of the away games I've been to has kept the acceptable side of 'rowdy' their is little doubt that on occasions they have created a localised nasty and unpleasant atmosphere, which does reduce the pleasure for a number of people and can influence their decision whether to go along or not.
For those who have lives beyond WWFC there can be all sorts of 'excuses' not to attend, cost, weather, family pressure and (last year especially) dull, dull 'hoofball'. Being surrounded by pissed idiots showing off can reasonably be added to that list. Doesn't make it any less of a valid excuse.
I plead guilty to being a "pissed idiot" back in the day (mostly past-tense) so I am not without some sympathy, but it is the apparent willingness to repeat the same 'mistakes' week after week that I think has resulted in the club taken what, at the moment at least, seems to be proportionate action
If I thought for a second this tit actually was remorseful for his racism (rather than horrified at getting busted) I might support his rehabilitation.
But until he finds a way to demonstrate that remorse, he can get gone. It’s not up to the club to organise that for him.
I simply don't get the pyrotechnic thing. The rules are clear. Fans have been banned. The club is highly communicative in all medias regarding its policy. So why do they keep bringing them? Is it a (ahem) macho p1ssing contest between the yoof brigade? I just don't get it when you consider risk v reward. Maybe I'm just too old
It's an intriguingly worded comment about the racism in that statement.
You wonder what was going on. Did the guy casually say it to his mate, or was he taunting someone outside the ground/a rival fan?
If it's the latter, probably lucky just to get a football ban and not some sort of old bill summons.
Should name the fan though, and all such bans. Unless they're under 16 or 18 is it that you can't do?
Reading the statement from the club, the Solihull incident sounds suspiciously like something I (and probably anyone else who was on the shuttle bus immediately after the game) sadly saw the back end of at Solihull station - basically a lad (who was with presumably his girlfriend/friend) getting very irate with this 'fan' of ours about some choice language/word he'd been using on the bus from what I could gather. Again, I don't know for sure, but if it was this guy - who was very obvious throughout the afternoon such was the state he was in - then he was also knocking back the drink like there was no tomorrow in the pub beforehand, and apparently didn't even make it into the ground (which wouldn't surprise me). All pretty sad really.
Whilst my sympathy for these individuals is pretty close to zero, I do take the point that some sort of rehabilitative process might be useful, at least for the racism case. Yes, ban him as well, absolutely, but that doesn't solve the problem by itself.
The question of who goes to the trouble and expense of organising said rehabilitation is another matter entirely. We can't even afford to fix the broken seats in the away end, let alone provide basic life skills for some shandied-up virginious cretin. Could some sort of education programme be worked out with a local community scheme or TVP? I don't know. Successful completion of an awareness course, perhaps with face-to-face meetings with victims of race crime, could perhaps see the ban reduced by, say, six months?
I'm all for having a few beers before a game and I will hold my hands up that in the past I have gone to some Wycome games absolutely skinned, but back then I still managed not to break the law despite my inebriated state. Drunkeness is not an excuse for using racist language, that's purely down to individual choice. Likewise, as others have already said, taking a pyro into a ground shows premeditated thought. No sympathy there. Fans warned, fans banned, fans warned again, repeat. If you can't grasp that, you are too stupid for words.
I will be absolutely skinned by the time I get to Wham Stadium tomorrow. Same as last year. Everyone was very polite to me last year and I hope for the same this year.
I'm pretty confident that most on this site have had one or two creme de menthes too many prior to a game, or during a social occasion. However I would also be fairly confident that we've all avoided the need for racist behaviour. So the whole drunk + football = racist arsehole equation is a non-starter for me. Racist arsehole + drink = bigger racist arsehole is more likely the case.
I'm with @Midlander on this one. I don't see the point of banning the person for any longer than the season. Surely the message is as clear for that duration as it is for 3 years, with the obvious exception being that the person is more likely to return to the football club and won't miss out on the benefits of attending games with the people they regularly go with. Just because someone says something racist doesn't mean they are racist, they may just be behaving in a moronic way. You shouldn't judge someone based on incident, you are being a "moron" if you do that.
I hate how some on here will admit to breaking the 1985 law previously, but then are quick to defend themselves saying that you were good little boys and didn't bother anyone. If you are that intoxicated how can you be sure you didn't say or do anything as offensive, be it not racist in the earshot of someone at the game.
Those guys are in a development part of their lives just like we all were at that age. There is no excuse for racism, but when people show remorse and are prepared to learn from mistakes we should give them that opportunity IMHO.
How does someone prove themselves a racist out of interest, if using racist language isn't necessarily a guide? Is there a frequency needed? Say 5 times a week? Do we know this guy's outburst was just a booze addled one off?
I agree with @TheAndyGrahamFanClub. Being drunk doesn't make you racist. Being racist makes you racist. Being drunk merely serves to lower you inhibitions for expressing your racism.
As far as I'm aware, being drunk doesn't count as a mitigating factor for any kind of criminal offence, so why should it count here. Full credit to the club for coming down hard on this in my opinion, I just wish that there could be some kind of educational process as well.
@Malone said:
How does someone prove themselves a racist out of interest, if using racist language isn't necessarily a guide? Is there a frequency needed? Say 5 times a week? Do we know this guy's outburst was just a booze addled one off?
Intention rather than wording imo. There's a difference between someone with racist opinions / beliefs and someone who drunkenly says something they don't actually believe in order to get a reaction in an argument. Hard to tell the difference because people that as the first of these will just claim to be the second.
There is no law against holding racist views. Nor should there be.
There is a law against abusing people racially. As there should be.
Point here surely is that the individual abused supporters of an opposing team unacceptably while drunk. In so doing he damaged the reputation of WWFC, spoilt other peoples day out and could have caused a greater disturbance.
In a climate of a group of supporters choosing to push the boundaries, it is not unreasonable IMHO for the club to push back hard when the boundaries are crossed, in part "pour encourager les autres".
Moral of story, if you cant hold your drink, don't get drunk.
I think there is blame on both sides. Some of these terrace guys are very fine people, very fine people. And what about the alt-white, shouldn't they share the blame for not being the same colour as this fine young man? I'm with @Midlander and @Bacon_Sandwich, this fine young man was obviously provoked by a member of the alt-white and we should be welcoming so-called racists into the ground for the pennies profit we get from the burger stand.
@Bacon_Sandwich said:
Just because someone says something racist doesn't mean they are racist, they may just be behaving in a moronic way. You shouldn't judge someone based on incident, you are being a "moron" if you do that.
Quote of the year! It’s almost impossible to know where to start.
So someone making racist comments is not necessarily racist? Unless this man is some sort of stand up comic or shooting an undercover documentary on attitudes to race, I’m not sure that quite works.
Finally, can I clarify that in crazy Bacon World if I were to bring a sword to AP and chop someone’s head off with it, anyone who claimed I should be banned would be a moron based on it being the first time I’d ever done it?
“Give him some rehab. He’s had a couple of IPAs - lesson learnt.”
@arnos_grove . I share your scepticism, but its actually pretty common for judgements in cases of racism to include a sentence that says, we accept person x is not racist, but they did use racist language on this occasion. I guess it helps sportspeople keep their sponsors or something.
Comments
Sorry about the repetition Eric types faster and more eloquently than me
I'm very sad too @Midlander that people are being banned from the ground. Saying the club can't afford to do this though suggests you think that the few pounds that moron might of given the club is more important than letting a drunk person with a pyrotechnic in to the ground. If you are really that stupid to turn up to a game in that state I can't imagine how much education would be needed and how any of it would get through.
Speaking as someone who is already going to fewer games due to morons making it less enjoyable I want that kind of idiot banned. Sorry if that offends
Let’s be clear: I’m not defending racists. But people, especially youngsters, make mistakes. I would rather people who have made one mistake and are remorseful are given second chances. Sorry if this makes me a bad person.
Maybe they are getting a second chance, perhaps less remorseful people get longer banning orders. Maybe its not a first offence just the first time they been caught or overheard. Its not at all clear, but racism isn't a mistake, and carrying pyrotechnics whilst not the same as racism requires a degree of pre-meditated behaviour, so not exactly a spur of the moment thing.
I'd be all for the club banning these people for say, a year, and then offering them a chance to provide a written apology and assurance they understand why it was wrong.
Racism is despicable, and people should be punished for it. But people do make mistakes and we should aim to rehabilitate those who commit racist offences, rather than permanently ostracise them.
@Midlander I agree that we all do things we regret, particularly when we were younger, but there are also levels of offence that require different levels of action
I would also add that we have a duty to make Adams Park a welcoming and non threatening environment for everybody regardless of race, gender, sexuality, nationality. I don't think the way to do this is by being lenient towards supporters who guilty of, for example, using racist language.
The clubs statement carefully omits to specify how long the racism ban is for.
Its not hard not to get banned - don't get so drunk you cant control your actions. I have successfully managed it every single game I have ever been to.
I suspect the current hard line stance is not unrelated to the deterioration in general behaviour by a small but significant minority. I can only echo Eric and say "good".
@Midlander - The club is LOSING money by allowing these thick morons to carry on their antisocial behaviour, not the reverse. I personally know three supporters that no longer go to away games because of these idiots.
I too have been put off going away, having only attended a couple of away games in the last year, whereas before I was going home and away for the last twenty five odd years. This has been a growing problem over the last few years which the club has been pretty slow to act upon. Inaction by the group of pensioners and youngsters who masquerade as stewards in the Valley End does not help - yes they can tell you to move off yellow lines, but don't have the will or bottle to deal with our hooligan element. The problem is they revel in their own little notorious world. It's not just confined to the young either, I have seen some in their 50's drunk and aggressive..one particular couple giving a steward the foulest of dogs abuse at half time at Solihull Moors because they couldn't get a half time alcoholic drink to top them up. But football fans represent all different strands of society I suppose. Going away is not the pleasure it used to be but as you get older you become less intolerant of moronic drunks.
If it's who I think it is from Solihull, then it was definitely a case of too much to drink. The guy is no trouble at all usually, definitely not one of the lot you usually demonise on here (although he tags on to that group sometimes).
Edit: that doesn't make whatever he said acceptable of course.
Anyone not going to Wycombe games because of the "morons/ abuse" has got to be using it as an excuse, or hasn't been to any of the other 91 grounds, as we're still one of the most "family" atmospheres, home or away.
@Username I'm not sure it is just an excuse. Whilst on the whole I've found the behaviour of some of our fans at most of the away games I've been to has kept the acceptable side of 'rowdy' their is little doubt that on occasions they have created a localised nasty and unpleasant atmosphere, which does reduce the pleasure for a number of people and can influence their decision whether to go along or not.
For those who have lives beyond WWFC there can be all sorts of 'excuses' not to attend, cost, weather, family pressure and (last year especially) dull, dull 'hoofball'. Being surrounded by pissed idiots showing off can reasonably be added to that list. Doesn't make it any less of a valid excuse.
I plead guilty to being a "pissed idiot" back in the day (mostly past-tense) so I am not without some sympathy, but it is the apparent willingness to repeat the same 'mistakes' week after week that I think has resulted in the club taken what, at the moment at least, seems to be proportionate action
If I thought for a second this tit actually was remorseful for his racism (rather than horrified at getting busted) I might support his rehabilitation.
But until he finds a way to demonstrate that remorse, he can get gone. It’s not up to the club to organise that for him.
I simply don't get the pyrotechnic thing. The rules are clear. Fans have been banned. The club is highly communicative in all medias regarding its policy. So why do they keep bringing them? Is it a (ahem) macho p1ssing contest between the yoof brigade? I just don't get it when you consider risk v reward. Maybe I'm just too old
It's an intriguingly worded comment about the racism in that statement.
You wonder what was going on. Did the guy casually say it to his mate, or was he taunting someone outside the ground/a rival fan?
If it's the latter, probably lucky just to get a football ban and not some sort of old bill summons.
Should name the fan though, and all such bans. Unless they're under 16 or 18 is it that you can't do?
Reading the statement from the club, the Solihull incident sounds suspiciously like something I (and probably anyone else who was on the shuttle bus immediately after the game) sadly saw the back end of at Solihull station - basically a lad (who was with presumably his girlfriend/friend) getting very irate with this 'fan' of ours about some choice language/word he'd been using on the bus from what I could gather. Again, I don't know for sure, but if it was this guy - who was very obvious throughout the afternoon such was the state he was in - then he was also knocking back the drink like there was no tomorrow in the pub beforehand, and apparently didn't even make it into the ground (which wouldn't surprise me). All pretty sad really.
Whilst my sympathy for these individuals is pretty close to zero, I do take the point that some sort of rehabilitative process might be useful, at least for the racism case. Yes, ban him as well, absolutely, but that doesn't solve the problem by itself.
The question of who goes to the trouble and expense of organising said rehabilitation is another matter entirely. We can't even afford to fix the broken seats in the away end, let alone provide basic life skills for some shandied-up virginious cretin. Could some sort of education programme be worked out with a local community scheme or TVP? I don't know. Successful completion of an awareness course, perhaps with face-to-face meetings with victims of race crime, could perhaps see the ban reduced by, say, six months?
I'm all for having a few beers before a game and I will hold my hands up that in the past I have gone to some Wycome games absolutely skinned, but back then I still managed not to break the law despite my inebriated state. Drunkeness is not an excuse for using racist language, that's purely down to individual choice. Likewise, as others have already said, taking a pyro into a ground shows premeditated thought. No sympathy there. Fans warned, fans banned, fans warned again, repeat. If you can't grasp that, you are too stupid for words.
Great post @Jonny_King
I will be absolutely skinned by the time I get to Wham Stadium tomorrow. Same as last year. Everyone was very polite to me last year and I hope for the same this year.
I'm pretty confident that most on this site have had one or two creme de menthes too many prior to a game, or during a social occasion. However I would also be fairly confident that we've all avoided the need for racist behaviour. So the whole drunk + football = racist arsehole equation is a non-starter for me. Racist arsehole + drink = bigger racist arsehole is more likely the case.
Spot on @TheAndyGrahamFanClub
I'm with @Midlander on this one. I don't see the point of banning the person for any longer than the season. Surely the message is as clear for that duration as it is for 3 years, with the obvious exception being that the person is more likely to return to the football club and won't miss out on the benefits of attending games with the people they regularly go with. Just because someone says something racist doesn't mean they are racist, they may just be behaving in a moronic way. You shouldn't judge someone based on incident, you are being a "moron" if you do that.
I hate how some on here will admit to breaking the 1985 law previously, but then are quick to defend themselves saying that you were good little boys and didn't bother anyone. If you are that intoxicated how can you be sure you didn't say or do anything as offensive, be it not racist in the earshot of someone at the game.
Those guys are in a development part of their lives just like we all were at that age. There is no excuse for racism, but when people show remorse and are prepared to learn from mistakes we should give them that opportunity IMHO.
How does someone prove themselves a racist out of interest, if using racist language isn't necessarily a guide? Is there a frequency needed? Say 5 times a week? Do we know this guy's outburst was just a booze addled one off?
I agree with @TheAndyGrahamFanClub. Being drunk doesn't make you racist. Being racist makes you racist. Being drunk merely serves to lower you inhibitions for expressing your racism.
As far as I'm aware, being drunk doesn't count as a mitigating factor for any kind of criminal offence, so why should it count here. Full credit to the club for coming down hard on this in my opinion, I just wish that there could be some kind of educational process as well.
Intention rather than wording imo. There's a difference between someone with racist opinions / beliefs and someone who drunkenly says something they don't actually believe in order to get a reaction in an argument. Hard to tell the difference because people that as the first of these will just claim to be the second.
There is no law against holding racist views. Nor should there be.
There is a law against abusing people racially. As there should be.
Point here surely is that the individual abused supporters of an opposing team unacceptably while drunk. In so doing he damaged the reputation of WWFC, spoilt other peoples day out and could have caused a greater disturbance.
In a climate of a group of supporters choosing to push the boundaries, it is not unreasonable IMHO for the club to push back hard when the boundaries are crossed, in part "pour encourager les autres".
Moral of story, if you cant hold your drink, don't get drunk.
Moral of the story, If you can't support your team through thick and thin, don't call yourself a supporter !!
I think there is blame on both sides. Some of these terrace guys are very fine people, very fine people. And what about the alt-white, shouldn't they share the blame for not being the same colour as this fine young man? I'm with @Midlander and @Bacon_Sandwich, this fine young man was obviously provoked by a member of the alt-white and we should be welcoming so-called racists into the ground for the pennies profit we get from the burger stand.
Quote of the year! It’s almost impossible to know where to start.
So someone making racist comments is not necessarily racist? Unless this man is some sort of stand up comic or shooting an undercover documentary on attitudes to race, I’m not sure that quite works.
Finally, can I clarify that in crazy Bacon World if I were to bring a sword to AP and chop someone’s head off with it, anyone who claimed I should be banned would be a moron based on it being the first time I’d ever done it?
“Give him some rehab. He’s had a couple of IPAs - lesson learnt.”
"The club can't afford to ban supporters who behead other supporters"
@arnos_grove . I share your scepticism, but its actually pretty common for judgements in cases of racism to include a sentence that says, we accept person x is not racist, but they did use racist language on this occasion. I guess it helps sportspeople keep their sponsors or something.