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Derby County FFP and the EFL

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  • Saddest thing for me is that one of them is there without having had points deducted!

  • Ironic that EFL point jiggery has lifted Peterborough out of the bottom 3. I'm sure they'll do the decent thing and elect to be placed back there.

    Meanwhile fun and games going on at Posh with Clarke Harris set for a ban after being charged with sending abusive tweets 9 years ago, while goalkeeper Christy Pym is set to be given the heave-ho after chucking a book at Darren Ferguson in a post-match argument.

  • I'm assuming if we do go up this season opposition fans will claim it is because of the financial advantage we got from going up unfairly the last time.

  • Perhaps Ferguson threw the book at him>

    @MindlessDrugHoover said:

    Ironic that EFL point jiggery has lifted Peterborough out of the bottom 3. I'm sure they'll do the decent thing and elect to be placed back there.

    Meanwhile fun and games going on at Posh with Clarke Harris set for a ban after being charged with sending abusive tweets 9 years ago, while goalkeeper Christy Pym is set to be given the heave-ho after chucking a book at Darren Ferguson in a post-match argument.

  • @MindlessDrugHoover said:
    Meanwhile fun and games going on at Posh with Clarke Harris set for a ban after being charged with sending abusive tweets 9 years ago, while goalkeeper Christy Pym is set to be given the heave-ho after chucking a book at Darren Ferguson in a post-match argument.

    Was the book called 'How To Understand Complicated Formulas Such As Dividing Points Gained By Games Played'?

  • @Shev said:
    I actually think they are good enough to overcome the -12 so far this season. The other 9 or so would need to be tacked on to relegate them. However, in Derby's spirit of delaying things to benefit them, the EFL should hold off on that one to see how the season goes, and then apply it right at the end if it is needed.

    The “other 9” might well be more than that. 9 was suggested if an agreed punishment. If the administrators can’t agree a business plan, hard to do if you don’t know the ultimate owners and what they would/could agree to, for the way forward to get an agreed punishment then the EFL could take to a disciplinary panel where more than 9 would be expected. Birmingham in the past had 15 points.

    Then potentially add in the 3 suspended for not paying players if wages are not paid again during the administration. I don’t know if this would then be repeated every month non payment.

    It’d be in Derby’s best interest to get all deductions this season rather than be relegated and start next season with deductions carried over.

  • @carrickblue said:

    It’d be in Derby’s best interest to get all deductions this season rather than be relegated and start next season with deductions carried over.

    It was in the best financial interests of Derby to drop out the Championship last year but I’m not sure they were that bothered.

  • @Right_in_the_Middle said:

    It was in the best financial interests of Derby to drop out the Championship last year but I’m not sure they were that bothered.

    Not really. Morris knowing that points deductions and probable relegation was imminent this season staying as a championship team heading for league 1 is potentially creating a better investment bet than a league 1 team headed for league 2.

  • @carrickblue said:

    @Right_in_the_Middle said:

    It was in the best financial interests of Derby to drop out the Championship last year but I’m not sure they were that bothered.

    Not really. Morris knowing that points deductions and probable relegation was imminent this season staying as a championship team heading for league 1 is potentially creating a better investment bet than a league 1 team headed for league 2.

    A dead duck is a dead duck.

    Bolton seem to have turned the corner after dropping to a level they had the headroom to turn it around.

  • @Right_in_the_Middle said:

    @carrickblue said:

    @Right_in_the_Middle said:

    It was in the best financial interests of Derby to drop out the Championship last year but I’m not sure they were that bothered.

    Not really. Morris knowing that points deductions and probable relegation was imminent this season staying as a championship team heading for league 1 is potentially creating a better investment bet than a league 1 team headed for league 2.

    A dead duck is a dead duck.

    Bolton seem to have turned the corner after dropping to a level they had the headroom to turn it around.

    I think Bolton have some pretty smart and hard-headed people running things there now.

  • Wow, according to the price of football podcast apparently Morris has admitted in one of his interviews that the accounts wouldn't have passed in the proper format. Start the car Mr Couhig.

  • @StrongestTeam said:
    Wow, according to the price of football podcast apparently Morris has admitted in one of his interviews that the accounts wouldn't have passed in the proper format. Start the car Mr Couhig.

    That was initially stated by him in an interview with the fans about a week ago. Seems pretty shameless. The excuse appears to be that they knew that there would have been an extra 4 million of losses exposed, they would have failed the test, they would have incurred a points deduction, they would have gone down, they would have lost MORE money. So that's fair. If the EFL don't know now they have been taken for proper mugs but Derby they never will do.

  • Well, who would have thought a guy who, allegedly, had previously been found guilty of fraud, has been taken to court over the same offence.

    Do the EFL check criminal records?

    Worth listening to today's The Price of Football Podcast at the beginning they discuss Derby and Wycombe.

  • A tory engaged in fraud? Whatever next.

  • Perhaps they should just give us the points they deducted from Derby :-)

  • @StrongestTeam said:
    Wow, according to the price of football podcast apparently Morris has admitted in one of his interviews that the accounts wouldn't have passed in the proper format. Start the car Mr Couhig.

    And its those comments why I have changed my mind from 'letting it lie' to 'see if their is a case to answer'
    His comments basically (to me) say we were guilty, we know, but we did everything to delay things. Because of that then I believe our owners have every right to try and seek compensation.

  • edited September 2021

    Just to go back to Fleetwood.

    Does Andy Pilley have a material prior criminal record? Is there any evidence for this?

    No surprise surely that Fleetwood are loss making and appear to have lost c £5m in a Covid year and £20m in total over history. Again a quick reminder, debts owed to an owner are largely irrelevant. The threat to Fleetwood would appear to come from how to fund the next years bills if Pilley stops subsidising them going forward. Given the nature of his business and the criminal charges being faced now, that would appear a serious threat.

  • edited September 2021

    @DevC said:
    Just to go back to Fleetwood.

    Does Andy Pilley have a material prior criminal record? Is there any evidence for this?

    No surprise surely that Fleetwood are loss making and appear to have lost c £5m in a Covid year and £20m in total over history. Again a quick reminder, debts owed to an owner are largely irrelevant. The threat to Fleetwood would appear to come from how to fund the next years bills if Pilley stops subsidising them going forward. Given the nature of his business and the criminal charges being faced now, that would appear a serious threat.

    You've just given a nice brief explanation of why your "Debts owed to an owner are largely irrelevant" reminder is largely irrelevant.

  • You've said that debts owed to an owner are largely irrelevant.... Until they are, which is what could be happening at Fleetwood, and could see Derby cease to exist

  • With respect @Username , I dont think you understand finances.

    Its all about cash not accounting balance sheets. If you have cash to pay bills due next month (including loans that need to be repaid), you survive, if you dont you die.

    Fleetwood's problem is not about whether past cash Pilley put in to fund past revenue/cost gaps was accounted for as share capital or debt - that is irrelevant.

    Their problem is that he might not be able/willing to put cash in now to fund this and next months revenue/cost gap and they might not ne able to cut costs fast enough to match cost and revenue.

  • edited September 2021

    @DevC said:
    With respect @Username , I dont think you understand finances.

    Its all about cash not accounting balance sheets. If you have cash to pay bills due next month (including loans that need to be repaid), you survive, if you dont you die.

    Fleetwood's problem is not about whether past cash Pilley put in to fund past revenue/cost gaps was accounted for as share capital or debt - that is irrelevant.

    Their problem is that he might not be able/willing to put cash in now to fund this and next months revenue/cost gap and they might not ne able to cut costs fast enough to match cost and revenue.

    With respect, I think you're missing the point. I obviously understand the difference between working capital and historical debt, my point being that becoming absolutely dependent on a money man is always dangerous and shouldn't be allowed.

    If/ when Pilley's businesses go under, then as well as not funding them going forward, that supposedly benign debt to the club director could quite easily become fatal.

  • The fact it's been forced to become the norm to be able to compete is just patently bad for lower league clubs.... And by that I mean anytime outside the top 10 clubs in the country who couldn't ever become lower league

  • @Username said:

    my point being that becoming absolutely dependent on a money man is always dangerous

    There we are in agreement. But as I say it is the lack of immediate future funding and inability to cut costs to meet the suddenly reduced cash incomings that are the problem not the accounting for past shareholding cash inflows.

  • edited September 2021

    @tom_doust said:
    Perhaps they should just give us the points they deducted from Derby :-)

    Absolutely. You can't just make points disappear - that goes against the laws of physics, surely. Those points cannot simply cease to exist, they, like mass, must be redistributed elsewhere. In our Points For column in this case. Science, innit.

  • I can hear Mr Peterborough sharpening his pencil

  • Those points cannot simply cease to exist, they, like mass, must be redistributed elsewhere. In our Points For column in this case. Science, innit.

    And for good measure can we please have the unallocated point in all drawn games across the leagues. Anything to prevent Derby or Peterborough claiming them

  • Reading, Derby, Swindon, Oldham and Fleetwood all look like being in dire trouble this season and I suspect there will be a few more as the season rumbles on.

    The Championship could end up being a real joke. With three relegated teams all having major points deductions. Hull could be heading towards a deduction if some rumours are true.

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