Coughing will annoy people in any scenario - stay quiet and some will argue he isn’t standing up for our interests; say something and he’s accused of dragging things out in the press.
Can’t please everyone.
Personally, I’m satisfied we are doing the right thing by pursuing the matter (how on earth could we not?!) and communicating openly (e.g this evening’s event) but without actively ‘campaigning’ through the media. As far as I can see the club and it’s owners have made a total of two remarks on the matter to national press, so we aren’t going out of our way to make a big deal of it. Just enough to let it be known we’re willing to fight our corner.
Lastly, I’d add this goes far beyond our own selfish interests. WWFC happen to be in a position to benefit if Derby suffer a retrospective points deduction. We can’t pretend there isn’t a bit of good fortune in that for us. But we are just doing what any club would do in our situation. Much more importantly, the rules need to be enforced and carry weight. Demanding that happens, and having a credible threat (legal action) against clubs that wriggle out of it, is important for other clubs that play by the rules, not just WWFC.
I think we'd all love Wycombe to play to the letter of the Corinthian spirit, remain quiet and dignified in every situation and let the guilty be judged by the appropriate authorities. Problem is, they aren't being and we as a club aren't the same as we were 2 years ago. I'm no fan of American-style litigation culture but sometimes you need that kind of bullishness to get the right result for you. The Trust did so much great work when it took over but sometimes it felt like anyone could roll us over due to maybe a bit of naivety (eg the Phillips sell-on). I don't see Rob having done or said anything undignified and I'm glad he's willing, and, importantly, able, to fight our corner.
I personally have no with RC stamping his feet, (publicly or privately) over this issue. Good for him, I haven't looked in to the minutae of the wrong doings of DCFC, but given all the tub thumping, it is clear that they have cheated. As such they should be punished & other clubs should not suffer as a consequence of their actions. It doesn't matter to me if it's "Little Old Wycombe" or Man Ewwww, they've cheated, gambled and are now expecting others to pay, as in WWFC not having another season in the Championship & the financial rewards that go with it.
I do not however see the point in suing DCFC for XXXX Millions, when clearly they are going to claim, (& probably rightly so), that they don't have the proverbial "pot to urinate in". I am no legal expert, but racking up lawyers bill to win a financial reward that is never going to be paid, just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
I have had a few similar "debates" recently with supply companies that wanted to engage with debt collection agencies to collect their financial dues from my mum. She died in January & despite me informing them by telephone & over the internet, they still seemed intent on continuing? In the end, I have given up and just asked them which magistrates court they would like me to take her ashes to, so they can argue their case and let the independent arbitration system decide!
@Commoner@ReturnToSenda so far the only thing that the DC have determined is that Derby didn't follow standard accounting practice FRS102 when stating their accounts for the period 2016-2018, hence the £100k fine and reprimand.
So far it's not clear if they have broken FFP rules, despite the sale for £80M and lease back for £40M of PP - which, however ridiculous, was allowed.
While I agree with RC they that have in spirit "cheated" and "cooked the books", it's not correct to say that a points deduction is inevitable.
The rules aren't fit for purpose, this whole episode has surely illustrated that. For anyone that cares it's very enlightening to read the full transcript of the DC & appeal - you get to see the reasoning behind the headline and it's not always as obvious as may seem.
Anyway while I'd love to see WWFC playing Championship football next year as much as anybody most of all I want our club to know, with certainty, which fecking league we'll be in.
Now that is something I want RC to be stating to the EFL on a daily basis in the strongest possible terms and if necessary threatening legal action!
@aloysius said:
We had £10m in the bank. Buying one player wouldn't have broken it. I think you've still got the 'Little Wycombe' mentality going that Rob doesn't like so much. Last year was an exceptional season for us in so many ways. Not least of which was the ability to spend a little money on the squad with no risk of repercussions.
One day, you might actually let us know where you’re getting this ‘£10m in the bank’ figure from. Although I suspect that’s as likely as you paying a compliment to the Couhigs.
It’s almost like you think there were no other costs incurred through being in the Championship and playing in empty stadiums. And that’s before we consider the money that’s having to being spent now on a stadium that’s suffered from a decade of neglect.
As to RC’s statement, personally I’d prefer to keep out of the row but it’s extraordinary for the EFL to put out a statement like they did and simply go quiet. Derby’s statement was pretty pompous and possibly fuelled a response from the chairman.
Like many, I'm a bit torn over this. It seems a bit American and hard-nosed to sue, and it will give Derby fans a chance to hate us. However, suing (in the USA as here) provides a useful discipline for those who play fast and loose with the rules. Derby County cheated and as a result were able to fund a bigger playing budget which allowed them to stay up. Relegation costs us a lot. Suing reflects this.
@Kim_il_Swan said:
As a big fan of The Armando Iannucci Shows I'm just pleased that this morning I got to sing "We're going to sue---oo-oo-oooo Derby County"
I didn't know Mr Couhig was going to contribute at last night's Supporters Trust meeting as this was not included in the original email sent out by the WWT Chair dated 21st June.
I am sure many others will have been disappointed to have missed it too.
As several directors post on this forum, could someone make the information available?
@aloysius I ask again...who WAS this player you keep going on about that would have saved us? A defender to stop us conceding from winning positions against Luton and Swansea and thus securing our place or a striker who would have scored 30 goals?
Don't mind Rob trying to expedite things or separating someone from some cash. They only pipped us by one point after all, which is something to be pleased with. I think he knows we are in L1 next season, but wants to get something out of the fiasco, why not try your arm. I feel sorry for the Derby fans (as much as I can) for the way their club has been run and it is never the fan's fault but they will be in the Championship next term so not too sad for them.
I didn’t really want to get involved in this discussion because I’m too tired/lazy to do the amount of background reading which my friend @Twizz has clearly undertaken.
In the broader and longer term context the loss of very substantial funds as a result of Derby’s survival at our expense is obviously the key issue but, almost as importantly, not being able to attract players like Joe Pigott who are holding out for an opportunity to play Championship football is a real constraint and just one example of the difficulty of planning for next season. As @Twizz says, we need to know (very soon) which fecking league we’ll be in in five weeks time.
On the question of suing Derby I have no opinion because that’s a realm too far but surely that would be setting some kind of precedent ? A football club suing another football club ?
I think this topic is worthy of wider and more balanced coverage in mainstream media if the example quoted on here recently (with no mention of Wycombe) is typical. If that necessitates one or two low key carefully worded statements to the press, so be it.
Not sure whether it's entirely relevant or comparable, but what was the outcome of the West Ham / Sheff Utd / Tevez situation? I seem to recall WHU were fined by the league but also paid compensation directly to the Blades, who were relegated.
@MindlessDrugHoover said:
Not sure whether it's entirely relevant or comparable, but what was the outcome of the West Ham / Sheff Utd / Tevez situation? I seem to recall WHU were fined by the league but also paid compensation directly to the Blades, who were relegated.
Probably as close as anything else, last paragraph seems spot on:
West Ham eventually paid £20m in compensation, having initially being fined £5.5m rather than being docked points.
An arbitration panel said the club had not only deliberately breached the rules but committed a grave breach of trust and been responsible for "dishonesty and deceit".
I didn't know Mr Couhig was going to contribute at last night's Supporters Trust meeting as this was not included in the original email sent out by the WWT Chair dated 21st June.
I am sure many others will have been disappointed to have missed it too.
As several directors post on this forum, could someone make the information available?
We did make this available as soon as we knew Rob could join our meeting. This was put out on WWT Twitter and Facebook soon after 6pm. Sorry you missed it James, plenty of others joined in.
What does a insomniac do on a Friday night, Saturday morning ? I spent my time reading and listening to podcasts about Derby and their feud with the EFL.
It’s actually really quite interesting, take overs , amortisation, and systematic cheat sorry loopholing . In my opinion Rob is right we might have a case for considerable compensation.
@NiceCarrots said:
F.A.O. Morris Ital - have you listened to the Price of Football podcasts on Derby's sorry saga?
Kieran Macguire was the guy who busted EFL on Derby in the first place.
We might feature on the next one as the news broke after the last podcast was recorded.
It's good that we have a board that pro-corporate governance, quite refreshing.
Yes, As an interested layman I wanted to know how we got here and what the possible outcomes for our club could be. As far as I can see the EFL want to appeal just on the 100k fine for Derbys player amortisation loophole whereas the panel has asked Derby to show their hand so to speak.
I wonder If their resubmitted accounts are compliant as they claim surely they must want to end the saga now with a paltry £100k fine and two fingers up to the EFL and ourselves.
If they delay submitting until the season starts and the accounts show a points deduction was justified this season gone do we have a case on their wilful delaying action that would make our replacing them impossible .
Comments
Coughing will annoy people in any scenario - stay quiet and some will argue he isn’t standing up for our interests; say something and he’s accused of dragging things out in the press.
Can’t please everyone.
Personally, I’m satisfied we are doing the right thing by pursuing the matter (how on earth could we not?!) and communicating openly (e.g this evening’s event) but without actively ‘campaigning’ through the media. As far as I can see the club and it’s owners have made a total of two remarks on the matter to national press, so we aren’t going out of our way to make a big deal of it. Just enough to let it be known we’re willing to fight our corner.
Lastly, I’d add this goes far beyond our own selfish interests. WWFC happen to be in a position to benefit if Derby suffer a retrospective points deduction. We can’t pretend there isn’t a bit of good fortune in that for us. But we are just doing what any club would do in our situation. Much more importantly, the rules need to be enforced and carry weight. Demanding that happens, and having a credible threat (legal action) against clubs that wriggle out of it, is important for other clubs that play by the rules, not just WWFC.
*Couhig
Its not for me
I think we'd all love Wycombe to play to the letter of the Corinthian spirit, remain quiet and dignified in every situation and let the guilty be judged by the appropriate authorities. Problem is, they aren't being and we as a club aren't the same as we were 2 years ago. I'm no fan of American-style litigation culture but sometimes you need that kind of bullishness to get the right result for you. The Trust did so much great work when it took over but sometimes it felt like anyone could roll us over due to maybe a bit of naivety (eg the Phillips sell-on). I don't see Rob having done or said anything undignified and I'm glad he's willing, and, importantly, able, to fight our corner.
I personally have no with RC stamping his feet, (publicly or privately) over this issue. Good for him, I haven't looked in to the minutae of the wrong doings of DCFC, but given all the tub thumping, it is clear that they have cheated. As such they should be punished & other clubs should not suffer as a consequence of their actions. It doesn't matter to me if it's "Little Old Wycombe" or Man Ewwww, they've cheated, gambled and are now expecting others to pay, as in WWFC not having another season in the Championship & the financial rewards that go with it.
I do not however see the point in suing DCFC for XXXX Millions, when clearly they are going to claim, (& probably rightly so), that they don't have the proverbial "pot to urinate in". I am no legal expert, but racking up lawyers bill to win a financial reward that is never going to be paid, just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
I have had a few similar "debates" recently with supply companies that wanted to engage with debt collection agencies to collect their financial dues from my mum. She died in January & despite me informing them by telephone & over the internet, they still seemed intent on continuing? In the end, I have given up and just asked them which magistrates court they would like me to take her ashes to, so they can argue their case and let the independent arbitration system decide!
@Commoner @ReturnToSenda so far the only thing that the DC have determined is that Derby didn't follow standard accounting practice FRS102 when stating their accounts for the period 2016-2018, hence the £100k fine and reprimand.
So far it's not clear if they have broken FFP rules, despite the sale for £80M and lease back for £40M of PP - which, however ridiculous, was allowed.
While I agree with RC they that have in spirit "cheated" and "cooked the books", it's not correct to say that a points deduction is inevitable.
The rules aren't fit for purpose, this whole episode has surely illustrated that. For anyone that cares it's very enlightening to read the full transcript of the DC & appeal - you get to see the reasoning behind the headline and it's not always as obvious as may seem.
Anyway while I'd love to see WWFC playing Championship football next year as much as anybody most of all I want our club to know, with certainty, which fecking league we'll be in.
Now that is something I want RC to be stating to the EFL on a daily basis in the strongest possible terms and if necessary threatening legal action!
As a big fan of The Armando Iannucci Shows I'm just pleased that this morning I got to sing "We're going to sue---oo-oo-oooo Derby County"
One day, you might actually let us know where you’re getting this ‘£10m in the bank’ figure from. Although I suspect that’s as likely as you paying a compliment to the Couhigs.
It’s almost like you think there were no other costs incurred through being in the Championship and playing in empty stadiums. And that’s before we consider the money that’s having to being spent now on a stadium that’s suffered from a decade of neglect.
As to RC’s statement, personally I’d prefer to keep out of the row but it’s extraordinary for the EFL to put out a statement like they did and simply go quiet. Derby’s statement was pretty pompous and possibly fuelled a response from the chairman.
Like many, I'm a bit torn over this. It seems a bit American and hard-nosed to sue, and it will give Derby fans a chance to hate us. However, suing (in the USA as here) provides a useful discipline for those who play fast and loose with the rules. Derby County cheated and as a result were able to fund a bigger playing budget which allowed them to stay up. Relegation costs us a lot. Suing reflects this.
We could be in Derby's position one day, I think we should bear that in mind before demanding our pound of flesh
Understood, but if we cheat, we should bear the consequences.
You've got 22 legs, use them
HorspathBlue A really good post. Why should they hate us i would have thought they should hate the guys who have run Derby County more than us.
Hi there,
I didn't know Mr Couhig was going to contribute at last night's Supporters Trust meeting as this was not included in the original email sent out by the WWT Chair dated 21st June.
I am sure many others will have been disappointed to have missed it too.
As several directors post on this forum, could someone make the information available?
@aloysius I ask again...who WAS this player you keep going on about that would have saved us? A defender to stop us conceding from winning positions against Luton and Swansea and thus securing our place or a striker who would have scored 30 goals?
Don't mind Rob trying to expedite things or separating someone from some cash. They only pipped us by one point after all, which is something to be pleased with. I think he knows we are in L1 next season, but wants to get something out of the fiasco, why not try your arm. I feel sorry for the Derby fans (as much as I can) for the way their club has been run and it is never the fan's fault but they will be in the Championship next term so not too sad for them.
Toney @Wendoverman!
Yes, but it's not the Derby supporters who've been going all their lives who have cheated is it?
I didn’t really want to get involved in this discussion because I’m too tired/lazy to do the amount of background reading which my friend @Twizz has clearly undertaken.
In the broader and longer term context the loss of very substantial funds as a result of Derby’s survival at our expense is obviously the key issue but, almost as importantly, not being able to attract players like Joe Pigott who are holding out for an opportunity to play Championship football is a real constraint and just one example of the difficulty of planning for next season. As @Twizz says, we need to know (very soon) which fecking league we’ll be in in five weeks time.
On the question of suing Derby I have no opinion because that’s a realm too far but surely that would be setting some kind of precedent ? A football club suing another football club ?
I think this topic is worthy of wider and more balanced coverage in mainstream media if the example quoted on here recently (with no mention of Wycombe) is typical. If that necessitates one or two low key carefully worded statements to the press, so be it.
Sorry, 6 weeks.
Not sure whether it's entirely relevant or comparable, but what was the outcome of the West Ham / Sheff Utd / Tevez situation? I seem to recall WHU were fined by the league but also paid compensation directly to the Blades, who were relegated.
Derby are advertising for a finance manager ?
Interestingly Derby are advertising for a new finance manager. Closing date next week if anyone wants to apply https://www.dcfc.co.uk/page/club-vacancy-finance-manager?k=c269c9031c5fc20addb732d33654b195aa1e724f
Probably as close as anything else, last paragraph seems spot on:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/football/50177440.amp
West Ham eventually paid £20m in compensation, having initially being fined £5.5m rather than being docked points.
An arbitration panel said the club had not only deliberately breached the rules but committed a grave breach of trust and been responsible for "dishonesty and deceit".
Thanks
I feel sorry for Derby's fans, feel sorry for Wednesday, feel sorry for us, and feel sorry the entire pyramid is stuck with the clowns at the EFL.
We did make this available as soon as we knew Rob could join our meeting. This was put out on WWT Twitter and Facebook soon after 6pm. Sorry you missed it James, plenty of others joined in.
What does a insomniac do on a Friday night, Saturday morning ? I spent my time reading and listening to podcasts about Derby and their feud with the EFL.
It’s actually really quite interesting, take overs , amortisation, and systematic cheat sorry loopholing . In my opinion Rob is right we might have a case for considerable compensation.
F.A.O. Morris Ital - have you listened to the Price of Football podcasts on Derby's sorry saga?
Kieran Macguire was the guy who busted EFL on Derby in the first place.
We might feature on the next one as the news broke after the last podcast was recorded.
It's good that we have a board that pro-corporate governance, quite refreshing.
Yes, As an interested layman I wanted to know how we got here and what the possible outcomes for our club could be. As far as I can see the EFL want to appeal just on the 100k fine for Derbys player amortisation loophole whereas the panel has asked Derby to show their hand so to speak.
I wonder If their resubmitted accounts are compliant as they claim surely they must want to end the saga now with a paltry £100k fine and two fingers up to the EFL and ourselves.
If they delay submitting until the season starts and the accounts show a points deduction was justified this season gone do we have a case on their wilful delaying action that would make our replacing them impossible .