@Username said:
Then what's the point at all if any anti-racism movement or any protest full stop can just immediately be branded as political by any idiot, even when the people doing the action are specifically saying it isn't.
At that point, when it's spelt out in black and white, things sometimes are black and white.
The scenario I put forward use pretty likely to happen tomorrow, Millwall will likely make a similar statement about players taking the knee/ it not being political and people will boo, and at that point there is no doubt, it is a racism problem.
Not everyone sees things the way you do. They are not all idiots.
And I'd be fascinated to know what the people who thumbs downed that last one took exception to in the suggestion that not everyone who disagrees with one is an idiot.
It's not strictly apolitical if you consider that some people genuinely do support political parties that don't agree with racial equality- maybe that's why the Millwall fans are so incensed and adamant, it directly goes against their political beliefs of a segregated society
But in mainstream society where all political parties supposedly do support racial equality, then there's no political sides to this, it's a human rights issue
Whatever you thought about players taking the knee up until last Saturday, what happened means that it definitely won't be "empty posturing" from now on
Players taking the knee tomorrow in defiance of what happened at Millwall and Colchester is now loaded with meaning. I am hoping fans up and down the country stand and applaud the gesture tomorrow evening. I will be doing so at Adams Park on Saturday
@chairboyscentral said:
See Millwall's latest statement further up the thread - have read it a couple of times now and still not sure it really says anything.
Their club board are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
If they condemn their own fans the club could eat itself, if they don't then well.....
Easy to say from the outside that they should take the moral high ground, but I don't have millions tied into it.
Could that be because you've got into a way of thinking that says one organization or ideology holds the key to combatting racism? Now I'm not going to try and second guess the motives of each Millwall fan but I think it's reasonable to suppose there would have been a range of reasons why they booed and tarring them all with the same brush would be close to the mindset of the racist. I think that taking the knee has run its course and I have more to say on the BLM movement than I've got room for here but my point is that to keep it up is empty posturing and nobody's been brave enough to say it - hence the emperor's new clothes remark.
What are your thoughts on the Colchester chairman's statement today out of interest?
He's speaking the new corporate language of Critical Race Theory (CRT). Whether he genuinely believes what he says or whether he's just code-signalling, I wouldn't like to say. This is what I was referring to when I said that that no particular dogma has the monopoly on fighting racism and I thinking he's treading a dangerous path. I'm going to have to expand a bit on my thought on BLM: I might be considered left-wing on certain issues and I agree with their views on the nuclear family, their misunderstood call to defund the police is interesting, they claim to be in favour of 'green' issues which I agree with (though I think some of their policies would be self-defeating) but their core principal of using CRT as a means to create racial equity is misguided to say the least. I believe that social class is a bigger divider than race and we are increasingly seeing the 'woke' professional and managerial class using terms like white fragility and white privilege to divide and rule the workers. The Millwall fans understand that they are being ordered to conform and they don't like it.
@chairboyscentral said:
See Millwall's latest statement further up the thread - have read it a couple of times now and still not sure it really says anything.
Their club board are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
If they condemn their own fans the club could eat itself, if they don't then well.....
Easy to say from the outside that they should take the moral high ground, but I don't have millions tied into it.
Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of it either way. The worst outcome would be if all the upstanding fans feel they have no choice but to walk away.
Could that be because you've got into a way of thinking that says one organization or ideology holds the key to combatting racism? Now I'm not going to try and second guess the motives of each Millwall fan but I think it's reasonable to suppose there would have been a range of reasons why they booed and tarring them all with the same brush would be close to the mindset of the racist. I think that taking the knee has run its course and I have more to say on the BLM movement than I've got room for here but my point is that to keep it up is empty posturing and nobody's been brave enough to say it - hence the emperor's new clothes remark.
What are your thoughts on the Colchester chairman's statement today out of interest?
He's speaking the new corporate language of Critical Race Theory (CRT). Whether he genuinely believes what he says or whether he's just code-signalling, I wouldn't like to say. This is what I was referring to when I said that that no particular dogma has the monopoly on fighting racism and I thinking he's treading a dangerous path. I'm going to have to expand a bit on my thought on BLM: I might be considered left-wing on certain issues and I agree with their views on the nuclear family, their misunderstood call to defund the police is interesting, they claim to be in favour of 'green' issues which I agree with (though I think some of their policies would be self-defeating) but their core principal of using CRT as a means to create racial equity is misguided to say the least. I believe that social class is a bigger divider than race and we are increasingly seeing the 'woke' professional and managerial class using terms like white fragility and white privilege to divide and rule the workers. The Millwall fans understand that they are being ordered to conform and they don't like it.
Agree with all of that pretty much, speaking as someone who would definitely fall into the white professional elite group to a lot of people... But a return question would be, so what, if their views are racist?
Why shouldn't they be made to conform? If they don't like it, tough, its unacceptable in society now, generally if you do things which society doesn't accept, you face consequences
Minority groups have had to suffer for years for no reason of their own, why shouldn't people who's views caused that be alienated/ pushed to the fringes of society or even locked up depending on how extreme their views are?
How many more years/decades/generations do people need to wait for it to be fully unacceptable to be casually racist... Everyone knows it still goes on, the pretence that isn't prevalent is ridiculous.
Your class point is definitely valid but a lot more complex to solve, although improving race disparity issues would also help the class issues...I think anyway?
@HCblue said:
And I'd be fascinated to know what the people who thumbs downed that last one took exception to in the suggestion that not everyone who disagrees with one is an idiot.
I didn’t thumb it, but maybe it’s because you took one word from @Username’s well reasoned post, pretended that he’d used that word to mean something entirely different to the way he’d used it, and then argued with the thing you’d made up instead of any of the excellent substance posted by someone foolishly trying to engage you in a reasonable debate.
Just like the vast majority of your other posts in this thread and any other thread about race.
@chairboyscentral said:
See Millwall's latest statement further up the thread - have read it a couple of times now and still not sure it really says anything.
Their club board are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
If they condemn their own fans the club could eat itself, if they don't then well.....
Easy to say from the outside that they should take the moral high ground, but I don't have millions tied into it.
Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of it either way. The worst outcome would be if all the upstanding fans feel they have no choice but to walk away.
Its dodgy ground, you only have to cast your thoughts back to the last election. Corbyn surrounded himself by his middle class momentum types, and despite being warned, the unthinkable happened the predominantly white working class of the north, turned there back on the Labour party and formed the collapse of the red wall.
@drcongo said:
That thread on the Millwall forum is hilarious. Every other post is someone listing a black player they don’t hate as proof that they’re not a racist. “I’m not racist, some of my best friends players are black”
Whilst a white person having a black friend might not prove conclusively that they're not racist, it would have to be said that they're not making a very good job of it.
@eric_plant said:
Theyre just not allowed to stand there booing people that dont
Not that difficult is it?
At what point do you think it would be appropriate to stop taking the knee?
When football is seen to have made some genuine change, for me personally.
Really, that's only up to the individual players to decide, while simply taking a knee before a game for 5 seconds is enough to piss off the flag shaggers into booing their own team as the first action on their return to the ground after an enforced exile due to a global pandemic, it's pretty clear there's a long way to go
@StrongestTeam said:
Some weird stuff above, I hope it's a bit more in depth than just people not wanting to be told what to do by society and thinking that is the same or worse than being racially abused but I'm not convinced.
I'm sorry but this issue is broader than it first appears as there is an insidious totalitarian mindset creeping into society that says it's my way or the highway. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Btw, I'm willing to bet that I've had more racial abuse and been beaten up by the police more times than everyone else on this thread put together and I'd take that over the sort of control that some appear to want.
@drcongo said:
That thread on the Millwall forum is hilarious. Every other post is someone listing a black player they don’t hate as proof that they’re not a racist. “I’m not racist, some of my best friends players are black”
Whilst a white person having a black friend might not prove conclusively that they're not racist, it would have to be said that they're not making a very good job of it.
That's a very poor point.
It's will established that absolutely ardent racists make exceptions when it suits them , because at the end of the day, they are still human and people do make accidental connections, and once a personal connection is made, the fear/ hate of the stranger to that individual can be sidelined "he's not like the others", "but this one's ok" etc etc
I’m actually becoming rather amused by the contortions some on here are resorting to in an attempt to justifying which in simple terms is a simple issue.
Personally I refuse to stand for the national anthem. That could be for any number of reasons, including the possibility that I’m naturally lazy (but is basically because I personally take the view that the monarchy is a logically indefensible institution that perpetuates the class system that continues to permeate and rot the structure of this country to its long-term detriment).
Regardless, whether anyone knows my reasoning for not standing, I am fully aware that my (in)action will be perceived as being anti-monarchy.
If being perceived in that way concerned me I would make conscious efforts to avoid looking like an inconsiderate idiot.
I find it incredulous that, in view of the debate since Saturday, that anyone can actually believe a non-racist motive for booing (if it happens) when players take the knee next.
If I was aggrieved by the politics of BLM but not a racist (of wanting to be perceived as one) I certainly wouldn’t join in with the booing
@bookertease said:
I’m actually becoming rather amused by the contortions some on here are resorting to in an attempt to justifying which in simple terms is a simple issue.
Personally I refuse to stand for the national anthem. That could be for any number of reasons, including the possibility that I’m naturally lazy (but is basically because I personally take the view that the monarchy is a logically indefensible institution that perpetuates the class system that continues to permeate and rot the structure of this country to its long-term detriment).
Regardless, whether anyone knows my reasoning for not standing, I am fully aware that my (in)action will be perceived as being anti-monarchy.
If being perceived in that way concerned me I would make conscious efforts to avoid looking like an inconsiderate idiot.
I find it incredulous that, in view of the debate since Saturday, that anyone can actually believe a non-racist motive for booing (if it happens) when players take the knee next.
If I was aggrieved by the politics of BLM but not a racist (of wanting to be perceived as one) I certainly wouldn’t join in with the booing
100%
I have massive reservations about our armed forces
Never in a million years would I choose to voice them during a minutes silence
@bookertease said:
I’m actually becoming rather amused by the contortions some on here are resorting to in an attempt to justifying which in simple terms is a simple issue.
Personally I refuse to stand for the national anthem. That could be for any number of reasons, including the possibility that I’m naturally lazy (but is basically because I personally take the view that the monarchy is a logically indefensible institution that perpetuates the class system that continues to permeate and rot the structure of this country to its long-term detriment).
Regardless, whether anyone knows my reasoning for not standing, I am fully aware that my (in)action will be perceived as being anti-monarchy.
If being perceived in that way concerned me I would make conscious efforts to avoid looking like an inconsiderate idiot.
I find it incredulous that, in view of the debate since Saturday, that anyone can actually believe a non-racist motive for booing (if it happens) when players take the knee next.
If I was aggrieved by the politics of BLM but not a racist (of wanting to be perceived as one) I certainly wouldn’t join in with the booing
100%
I have massive reservations about our armed forces
Never in a million years would I choose to voice them during a minutes silence
We don't have a minute's silence for the armed forces before every match.
Comments
Not everyone sees things the way you do. They are not all idiots.
And I'd be fascinated to know what the people who thumbs downed that last one took exception to in the suggestion that not everyone who disagrees with one is an idiot.
Would refusing to clap the knee-takers or turning one’s back warrant a lifetime ban? (Asking for a chum)
It's not strictly apolitical if you consider that some people genuinely do support political parties that don't agree with racial equality- maybe that's why the Millwall fans are so incensed and adamant, it directly goes against their political beliefs of a segregated society
But in mainstream society where all political parties supposedly do support racial equality, then there's no political sides to this, it's a human rights issue
Whatever you thought about players taking the knee up until last Saturday, what happened means that it definitely won't be "empty posturing" from now on
Players taking the knee tomorrow in defiance of what happened at Millwall and Colchester is now loaded with meaning. I am hoping fans up and down the country stand and applaud the gesture tomorrow evening. I will be doing so at Adams Park on Saturday
See Millwall's latest statement further up the thread - have read it a couple of times now and still not sure it really says anything.
I'm actually glad there aren't full houses/ away fans or it could turn ugly very quickly.
Absolute respect to the QPR and Millwall players who do choose to protest in the face of it
Their club board are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
If they condemn their own fans the club could eat itself, if they don't then well.....
Easy to say from the outside that they should take the moral high ground, but I don't have millions tied into it.
He's speaking the new corporate language of Critical Race Theory (CRT). Whether he genuinely believes what he says or whether he's just code-signalling, I wouldn't like to say. This is what I was referring to when I said that that no particular dogma has the monopoly on fighting racism and I thinking he's treading a dangerous path. I'm going to have to expand a bit on my thought on BLM: I might be considered left-wing on certain issues and I agree with their views on the nuclear family, their misunderstood call to defund the police is interesting, they claim to be in favour of 'green' issues which I agree with (though I think some of their policies would be self-defeating) but their core principal of using CRT as a means to create racial equity is misguided to say the least. I believe that social class is a bigger divider than race and we are increasingly seeing the 'woke' professional and managerial class using terms like white fragility and white privilege to divide and rule the workers. The Millwall fans understand that they are being ordered to conform and they don't like it.
Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of it either way. The worst outcome would be if all the upstanding fans feel they have no choice but to walk away.
Some just go to the football to escape all the woke stuff
Keeping your mouth shut for a few seconds isn't "being ordered to confirm"
The hoops people are prepared to jump through to defend these morons is remarkable
Unfortunately the football isn’t a safe space for racism.
Agree with all of that pretty much, speaking as someone who would definitely fall into the white professional elite group to a lot of people... But a return question would be, so what, if their views are racist?
Why shouldn't they be made to conform? If they don't like it, tough, its unacceptable in society now, generally if you do things which society doesn't accept, you face consequences
Minority groups have had to suffer for years for no reason of their own, why shouldn't people who's views caused that be alienated/ pushed to the fringes of society or even locked up depending on how extreme their views are?
How many more years/decades/generations do people need to wait for it to be fully unacceptable to be casually racist... Everyone knows it still goes on, the pretence that isn't prevalent is ridiculous.
Your class point is definitely valid but a lot more complex to solve, although improving race disparity issues would also help the class issues...I think anyway?
Do you think a player would be able to opt out of taking the knee?
They already are
Theyre just not allowed to stand there booing people that dont
Not that difficult is it?
I didn’t thumb it, but maybe it’s because you took one word from @Username’s well reasoned post, pretended that he’d used that word to mean something entirely different to the way he’d used it, and then argued with the thing you’d made up instead of any of the excellent substance posted by someone foolishly trying to engage you in a reasonable debate.
Just like the vast majority of your other posts in this thread and any other thread about race.
Its dodgy ground, you only have to cast your thoughts back to the last election. Corbyn surrounded himself by his middle class momentum types, and despite being warned, the unthinkable happened the predominantly white working class of the north, turned there back on the Labour party and formed the collapse of the red wall.
At what point do you think it would be appropriate to stop taking the knee?
Why does it have to stop?
When Bayo wants to stop taking the knee he can.
Whilst a white person having a black friend might not prove conclusively that they're not racist, it would have to be said that they're not making a very good job of it.
I suppose the easy answer is until we live in a society where people don't get angry about footballers wanting to end discrimination
Looks like we've got a bit of a way to go
When football is seen to have made some genuine change, for me personally.
Really, that's only up to the individual players to decide, while simply taking a knee before a game for 5 seconds is enough to piss off the flag shaggers into booing their own team as the first action on their return to the ground after an enforced exile due to a global pandemic, it's pretty clear there's a long way to go
I'm sorry but this issue is broader than it first appears as there is an insidious totalitarian mindset creeping into society that says it's my way or the highway. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Btw, I'm willing to bet that I've had more racial abuse and been beaten up by the police more times than everyone else on this thread put together and I'd take that over the sort of control that some appear to want.
That's a very poor point.
It's will established that absolutely ardent racists make exceptions when it suits them , because at the end of the day, they are still human and people do make accidental connections, and once a personal connection is made, the fear/ hate of the stranger to that individual can be sidelined "he's not like the others", "but this one's ok" etc etc
I’m actually becoming rather amused by the contortions some on here are resorting to in an attempt to justifying which in simple terms is a simple issue.
Personally I refuse to stand for the national anthem. That could be for any number of reasons, including the possibility that I’m naturally lazy (but is basically because I personally take the view that the monarchy is a logically indefensible institution that perpetuates the class system that continues to permeate and rot the structure of this country to its long-term detriment).
Regardless, whether anyone knows my reasoning for not standing, I am fully aware that my (in)action will be perceived as being anti-monarchy.
If being perceived in that way concerned me I would make conscious efforts to avoid looking like an inconsiderate idiot.
I find it incredulous that, in view of the debate since Saturday, that anyone can actually believe a non-racist motive for booing (if it happens) when players take the knee next.
If I was aggrieved by the politics of BLM but not a racist (of wanting to be perceived as one) I certainly wouldn’t join in with the booing
100%
I have massive reservations about our armed forces
Never in a million years would I choose to voice them during a minutes silence
We don't have a minute's silence for the armed forces before every match.