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  • @Username said:

    @arnos_grove said:
    I had a go at reasoning with a couple of tweeters who insisted on giving me their views on this (very much from the point of taking the knee needing to stop). One ended up blocking me when I mentioned poppies being worn on shirts (‘You don’t go there. Lowest of the low’), the other called me a fucking clown (fair enough, but a bit rude nonetheless).

    I’m not sure they can be won round in all honesty. Even when you try to suck it up and explain your position, the hostility is so extreme.

    Unfortunately this is exactly what I've found almost universally.

    How do you educate someone with the brain capacity of a brick?

    The only way they'll change is by force- when they're cut out of society. We're getting to the point where enough people may have had enough of waiting for people to be educated, and demanding that the bigots are the ones paying the societal price for their views, rather than accepting them as fringe views which belong in the past, but get a free pass just because "they don't know better". People have had enough time, they've just chosen not to engage

    Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.

  • @NewburyWanderer said:
    Some people, especially those from an older generation, may find it difficult to keep up with what is currently acceptable language. They may wonder why it's no longer acceptable to refer to "coloured people", but more acceptable to refer to "people of colour". When they were children, they may have been taught that the former term was correct and polite. I was certainly told that. In no way does the use of such language on its own mean that those people are necessarily racist, which is what seems to be generally assumed these days.

    It may not necessarily mean they're racist, but it's a very good indicator that they haven't spent any meaningful time with a person who isn't white since about 1980. Which indirectly gives us a clue that actually, they're probably a racist.

    As for this list from @DevC...

    I do though recognise that some people have concerns about the black lives matter campaign and all that has gone around it. They may be worried about what they perceive to be violent demonstrations

    Compare the violence at the EDL counter protests in London with the tiny smattering of fights at BLM protests.

    or damage to statues to a society and past Britain they are proud of.

    We are a country who literally puts colonisers and racists on a pedestal as a tribute to our own genocidal history. If you're against removing monuments to racism, you're a racist.

    They may be worried that a man's career my be ended by a careless misspeaking and misunderstanding of the current acceptable language.

    Cancel culture isn't real. It's made up by alt-right, white supremacist pricks like Jordan Peterson so that they can grift the gullible and earn a load of money for their heartfelt tell-all in Quillette. Look no further than Nigel Farage, Laurence Fox and the entire rosters of LBC and Times Radio making an absolute fortune out of punching down.

    They may not understand why its OK in the heat of a game to call an opposition player a f*cking cnt but not OK to call them a f*cking black c*nt.

    Again, this person has clearly not spent any time around anyone who isn't white since 1980.

    They may be worried at being tarred by being called "racist" when they express such concerns and angry at therefore being silenced.

    They are racist.

    They may be worried about the pace of a change to a society they felt comfortable and safe with.

    Good, their comfortable racist society is changing.

    None of this is a criticism of your post @DevC, but pointing out that actually, the people who hold any of those "worries" should take a long hard f*cking look at themselves.

    PS. If you want to put asterisks in words without formatting as italic or bold, you can escape the asterisk with a backslash. ie: "f\*ck racists" to produce f*ck racists

  • @HCblue said:
    Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.

    This is the most disingenuous post you've ever made, and that's a pretty high bar to clear. If you don't like being called a poundshop fascist, and you tell me that hurts your feelings, then I won't call you a poundshop fascist. If people of colour tell you they don't like being called "coloured", why the hell do you think you've got the right to carry on doing so?

  • @HCblue said:

    @Username said:

    @arnos_grove said:
    I had a go at reasoning with a couple of tweeters who insisted on giving me their views on this (very much from the point of taking the knee needing to stop). One ended up blocking me when I mentioned poppies being worn on shirts (‘You don’t go there. Lowest of the low’), the other called me a fucking clown (fair enough, but a bit rude nonetheless).

    I’m not sure they can be won round in all honesty. Even when you try to suck it up and explain your position, the hostility is so extreme.

    Unfortunately this is exactly what I've found almost universally.

    How do you educate someone with the brain capacity of a brick?

    The only way they'll change is by force- when they're cut out of society. We're getting to the point where enough people may have had enough of waiting for people to be educated, and demanding that the bigots are the ones paying the societal price for their views, rather than accepting them as fringe views which belong in the past, but get a free pass just because "they don't know better". People have had enough time, they've just chosen not to engage

    Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.

    That would speed up the process of binning off the dimwits, just put a few of their trigger words on it and they couldn't help themselves.

    Do you honestly think that the majority of problems with racism are to do with accidental misspeaks, or is this another typical side tracking to distract and muddy the waters.

    With the amount of information available now, and our knowledge of history and ability to look across society and the irrefutable data backing up that racism exists, you're either anti-racist, or racist in my book now, and it's time to pick a side. Staying silent, playing devils advocate or whatever only helps keep the status quo, which is racism.

  • @drcongo said:

    @HCblue said:
    Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.

    This is the most disingenuous post you've ever made, and that's a pretty high bar to clear. If you don't like being called a poundshop fascist, and you tell me that hurts your feelings, then I won't call you a poundshop fascist. If people of colour tell you they don't like being called "coloured", why the hell do you think you've got the right to carry on doing so?

    Quite a man of straw there.

  • @Username said:

    @HCblue said:

    @Username said:

    @arnos_grove said:
    I had a go at reasoning with a couple of tweeters who insisted on giving me their views on this (very much from the point of taking the knee needing to stop). One ended up blocking me when I mentioned poppies being worn on shirts (‘You don’t go there. Lowest of the low’), the other called me a fucking clown (fair enough, but a bit rude nonetheless).

    I’m not sure they can be won round in all honesty. Even when you try to suck it up and explain your position, the hostility is so extreme.

    Unfortunately this is exactly what I've found almost universally.

    How do you educate someone with the brain capacity of a brick?

    The only way they'll change is by force- when they're cut out of society. We're getting to the point where enough people may have had enough of waiting for people to be educated, and demanding that the bigots are the ones paying the societal price for their views, rather than accepting them as fringe views which belong in the past, but get a free pass just because "they don't know better". People have had enough time, they've just chosen not to engage

    Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.

    That would speed up the process of binning off the dimwits, just put a few of their trigger words on it and they couldn't help themselves.

    Do you honestly think that the majority of problems with racism are to do with accidental misspeaks, or is this another typical side tracking to distract and muddy the waters.

    With the amount of information available now, and our knowledge of history and ability to look across society and the irrefutable data backing up that racism exists, you're either anti-racist, or racist in my book now, and it's time to pick a side. Staying silent, playing devils advocate or whatever only helps keep the status quo, which is racism.

    Says you. I disagree. By all means take a side and suggest everyone else does too, but don't expect that your righteous conviction means victory for your "side" is inevitable. The thing about creating that kind of binary position is that you make conflict inevitable.

  • @drcongo It may not necessarily mean they're racist, but it's a very good indicator that they haven't spent any meaningful time with a person who isn't white since about 1980. Which indirectly gives us a clue that actually, they're probably a racist.
    That's entirely possible in the UK, large areas of which are still predominantly white demographically. Does that still make them probably racist?

  • @HCblue said:
    Quite a man of straw there.

    I'd agree with you if you were referring to your frankly absurd straw man about a manual of acceptable words. Nobody claimed there should be a manual of acceptable words except you. Everyone else was perfectly capable of understanding that there's a subjective hurt to certain words, and the subject should be the one who gets to decide if it hurts. Your refusal to accept that, and instead copy and paste this "manual of acceptable words" bollocks from whatever awful right wing propaganda site you dug it up from without even bothering to think it through, is precisely the problem.

  • edited December 2020

    @HCblue said:

    @Username said:

    @HCblue said:

    @Username said:

    @arnos_grove said:
    I had a go at reasoning with a couple of tweeters who insisted on giving me their views on this (very much from the point of taking the knee needing to stop). One ended up blocking me when I mentioned poppies being worn on shirts (‘You don’t go there. Lowest of the low’), the other called me a fucking clown (fair enough, but a bit rude nonetheless).

    I’m not sure they can be won round in all honesty. Even when you try to suck it up and explain your position, the hostility is so extreme.

    Unfortunately this is exactly what I've found almost universally.

    How do you educate someone with the brain capacity of a brick?

    The only way they'll change is by force- when they're cut out of society. We're getting to the point where enough people may have had enough of waiting for people to be educated, and demanding that the bigots are the ones paying the societal price for their views, rather than accepting them as fringe views which belong in the past, but get a free pass just because "they don't know better". People have had enough time, they've just chosen not to engage

    Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.

    That would speed up the process of binning off the dimwits, just put a few of their trigger words on it and they couldn't help themselves.

    Do you honestly think that the majority of problems with racism are to do with accidental misspeaks, or is this another typical side tracking to distract and muddy the waters.

    With the amount of information available now, and our knowledge of history and ability to look across society and the irrefutable data backing up that racism exists, you're either anti-racist, or racist in my book now, and it's time to pick a side. Staying silent, playing devils advocate or whatever only helps keep the status quo, which is racism.

    Says you. I disagree. By all means take a side and suggest everyone else does too, but don't expect that your righteous conviction means victory for your "side" is inevitable. The thing about creating that kind of binary position is that you make conflict inevitable.

    Unfortunately for you, it is inevitable, it's just a matter of time frame.

    How do you think those similarly to the right of centre in terms of racial views 50 years ago would fair now? My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so, we were brought up in an entirely multicultural digital societal (or most were). Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world (generally higher educated, even more left leaning than average for our age). The politics of race is only going in one direction, and quickly as we start to move into positions of power. Up to you if you jump on or stay screaming and flag humping on the outside

  • edited December 2020

    I've not spent any meaningful time with a person who isn't white since leaving school - and I left school in 2012. There are all sorts of reasons why that might be the case for someone.

  • edited December 2020

    @drcongo said:

    @HCblue said:
    Quite a man of straw there.

    I'd agree with you if you were referring to your frankly absurd straw man about a manual of acceptable words. Nobody claimed there should be a manual of acceptable words except you. Everyone else was perfectly capable of understanding that there's a subjective hurt to certain words, and the subject should be the one who gets to decide if it hurts. Your refusal to accept that, and instead copy and paste this "manual of acceptable words" bollocks from whatever awful right wing propaganda site you dug it up from without even bothering to think it through, is precisely the problem.

    And another one, with an unfounded ad hominem to boot. Are you saving "alt-right white supremacist" for later or is that just for famous people you disagree with?

  • @Username said:

    @HCblue said:

    @Username said:

    @HCblue said:

    @Username said:

    @arnos_grove said:
    I had a go at reasoning with a couple of tweeters who insisted on giving me their views on this (very much from the point of taking the knee needing to stop). One ended up blocking me when I mentioned poppies being worn on shirts (‘You don’t go there. Lowest of the low’), the other called me a fucking clown (fair enough, but a bit rude nonetheless).

    I’m not sure they can be won round in all honesty. Even when you try to suck it up and explain your position, the hostility is so extreme.

    Unfortunately this is exactly what I've found almost universally.

    How do you educate someone with the brain capacity of a brick?

    The only way they'll change is by force- when they're cut out of society. We're getting to the point where enough people may have had enough of waiting for people to be educated, and demanding that the bigots are the ones paying the societal price for their views, rather than accepting them as fringe views which belong in the past, but get a free pass just because "they don't know better". People have had enough time, they've just chosen not to engage

    Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.

    That would speed up the process of binning off the dimwits, just put a few of their trigger words on it and they couldn't help themselves.

    Do you honestly think that the majority of problems with racism are to do with accidental misspeaks, or is this another typical side tracking to distract and muddy the waters.

    With the amount of information available now, and our knowledge of history and ability to look across society and the irrefutable data backing up that racism exists, you're either anti-racist, or racist in my book now, and it's time to pick a side. Staying silent, playing devils advocate or whatever only helps keep the status quo, which is racism.

    Says you. I disagree. By all means take a side and suggest everyone else does too, but don't expect that your righteous conviction means victory for your "side" is inevitable. The thing about creating that kind of binary position is that you make conflict inevitable.

    Unfortunately for you, it is inevitable, it's just a matter of time frame.

    How do you think those similarly to the right of centre in terms of racial views 50 years ago would fair now? My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so, we were brought up in an entirely multicultural digital societal (or most were). Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world (generally higher educated, even more left leaning than average for our age). The politics of race is only going in one direction, and quickly as we start to move into positions of power. Up to you if you jump on or stay screaming and flag humping on the outside

    I'm not sure, again, that the choice is as binary as you suggest.

  • edited December 2020

    @Username said:
    Unfortunately for you, it is inevitable, it's just a matter of time frame.

    How do you think those similarly to the right of centre in terms of racial views 50 years ago would fair now? My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so, we were brought up in an entirely multicultural digital societal (or most were). Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world (generally higher educated, even more left leaning than average for our age). The politics of race is only going in one direction, and quickly as we start to move into positions of power. Up to you if you jump on or stay screaming and flag humping on the outside

    Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world...
    What makes you so convinced that you and your ilk are necessarily going to shape the world? Just interested.

  • @HCblue said:
    And another one, with an unfounded ad hominem to boot.

    There's literally nothing in there that is a straw man. It's a reply to your straw man. Just replying "straw man" when people pull you up on your own is pathetic.

    When I said that was your most disingenuous post ever, I was of course forgetting the last time you posted almost exactly the same thing. It's a standard response of Katy Hopkins, is that where you copied and pasted it from?

  • @NewburyWanderer said:

    @Username said:
    Unfortunately for you, it is inevitable, it's just a matter of time frame.

    How do you think those similarly to the right of centre in terms of racial views 50 years ago would fair now? My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so, we were brought up in an entirely multicultural digital societal (or most were). Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world (generally higher educated, even more left leaning than average for our age). The politics of race is only going in one direction, and quickly as we start to move into positions of power. Up to you if you jump on or stay screaming and flag humping on the outside

    Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world...
    What makes you so convinced that you and your ilk are necessarily going to shape the world? Just interested.

    The fact that we'll be alive longer than the previous generation, that generally how it works.

  • @NewburyWanderer said:
    @drcongo It may not necessarily mean they're racist, but it's a very good indicator that they haven't spent any meaningful time with a person who isn't white since about 1980. Which indirectly gives us a clue that actually, they're probably a racist.
    That's entirely possible in the UK, large areas of which are still predominantly white demographically. Does that still make them probably racist?

    Cornwall's for example non white ethnic group was only 1.8% of the population.

  • edited December 2020

    @Username said:

    @NewburyWanderer said:

    @Username said:
    Unfortunately for you, it is inevitable, it's just a matter of time frame.

    How do you think those similarly to the right of centre in terms of racial views 50 years ago would fair now? My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so, we were brought up in an entirely multicultural digital societal (or most were). Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world (generally higher educated, even more left leaning than average for our age). The politics of race is only going in one direction, and quickly as we start to move into positions of power. Up to you if you jump on or stay screaming and flag humping on the outside

    Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world...
    What makes you so convinced that you and your ilk are necessarily going to shape the world? Just interested.

    The fact that we'll be alive longer than the previous generation, that generally how it works.

    You're assuming everyone your age thinks the same as you?

  • @HCblue said:
    You're assuming everyone your age thinks the same as you.

    No he isn't. He literally wrote...

    My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so

    Why are you so triggered this evening? What exactly is it about people saying racism is bad that has got you so snowflaked up that you can't even read whole posts before hammering out your 10 word reply to one tiny part of it?

  • @drcongo said:

    @HCblue said:
    You're assuming everyone your age thinks the same as you.

    No he isn't. He literally wrote...

    My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so

    Why are you so triggered this evening? What exactly is it about people saying racism is bad that has got you so snowflaked up that you can't even read whole posts before hammering out your 10 word reply to one tiny part of it?

    That's the hat-trick. What's got you so triggered this evening?

  • @HCblue said:

    @drcongo said:

    @HCblue said:
    You're assuming everyone your age thinks the same as you.

    No he isn't. He literally wrote...

    My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so

    Why are you so triggered this evening? What exactly is it about people saying racism is bad that has got you so snowflaked up that you can't even read whole posts before hammering out your 10 word reply to one tiny part of it?

    That's the hat-trick. What's got you so triggered this evening?

    There you go again.

  • @HCblue said:

    @Username said:

    @NewburyWanderer said:

    @Username said:
    Unfortunately for you, it is inevitable, it's just a matter of time frame.

    How do you think those similarly to the right of centre in terms of racial views 50 years ago would fair now? My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so, we were brought up in an entirely multicultural digital societal (or most were). Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world (generally higher educated, even more left leaning than average for our age). The politics of race is only going in one direction, and quickly as we start to move into positions of power. Up to you if you jump on or stay screaming and flag humping on the outside

    Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world...
    What makes you so convinced that you and your ilk are necessarily going to shape the world? Just interested.

    The fact that we'll be alive longer than the previous generation, that generally how it works.

    You're assuming everyone your age thinks the same as you?

    I didn't say that at all, I said we are more progressive than the previous generation.

    And amongst the higher educated, higher achievers, the "leftiness" is even more pronounced, and we are going to be the ones who shape future.

    Even looking back across peers from school who I'm not in contact with via social media, the opinion on this is almost unanimous, and I doubt you'd call RGS a typical hub of lefty liberalism.

  • @Username said:
    The fact that we'll be alive longer than the previous generation, that generally how it works.

    Aah, the idealism of the young. Takes me back to around 1967. The hippie generation (of which I counted myself as one, even though I was only 12) thought they could change the world for the better. Didn't quite work out that way.

  • I can't say I share the belief that our generation (90s-born) will change the world for the better. Hard to have much hope at the moment.

  • A lot of comments about taking the knee, but very few about the players giving the 'Black Power Salute'
    I've heard that they are saying it means something else, but it is still the very same salute that the black Panthers commonly used.

  • edited December 2020

    @NewburyWanderer said:

    @Username said:
    The fact that we'll be alive longer than the previous generation, that generally how it works.

    Aah, the idealism of the young. Takes me back to around 1967. The hippie generation (of which I counted myself as one, even though I was only 12) thought they could change the world for the better. Didn't quite work out that way.

    Could quite easily argue that society has changed in exactly the way the hippies wanted it to in the 60s/70s, just at a slower rate.

    Society is more open, war is less politically acceptable, we are more conscious environmentally etc etc.

    Just a matter of time...

    In the information age, and one where they young have far more power because of the reliance on technologies which they are superior at, they won't be as patient.

  • @Username said:

    @HCblue said:

    @Username said:

    @NewburyWanderer said:

    @Username said:
    Unfortunately for you, it is inevitable, it's just a matter of time frame.

    How do you think those similarly to the right of centre in terms of racial views 50 years ago would fair now? My generation (I'm late 20s nearly 30) are faaaaaaar more progressive than the previous, and the generation following us even more so, we were brought up in an entirely multicultural digital societal (or most were). Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world (generally higher educated, even more left leaning than average for our age). The politics of race is only going in one direction, and quickly as we start to move into positions of power. Up to you if you jump on or stay screaming and flag humping on the outside

    Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world...
    What makes you so convinced that you and your ilk are necessarily going to shape the world? Just interested.

    The fact that we'll be alive longer than the previous generation, that generally how it works.

    You're assuming everyone your age thinks the same as you?

    I didn't say that at all, I said we are more progressive than the previous generation.

    And amongst the higher educated, higher achievers, the "leftiness" is even more pronounced, and we are going to be the ones who shape future.

    Even looking back across peers from school who I'm not in contact with via social media, the opinion on this is almost unanimous, and I doubt you'd call RGS a typical hub of lefty liberalism.

    It seems fair to think that the world is changing. But 'twas ever thus. Britain has certainly changed immeasurably in its perspectives since my childhood, as have I individually.

  • Were you progressive and tolerant back then?

  • @drcongo said:
    Were you progressive and tolerant back then?

    No. I've always been an alt-right, white supremacist prick with the wrong opinions. But I used to like Rice Krispies and now I prefer Frosties.

  • And it's changing in one direction....

    What do you think that means if you're opposing that?

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