@Chris said:
I'm not sure that peer pressure counts as having something imposed on you.
Than you must have very dim memories of childhood and a dim awareness of adulthood (though, from my admiring memory of your every succinct utterance, I don't think it so).
It might be seen that way. At worst it is craven avoidance of tacking a problem within the club and supporter base. At best it is simplistic. It is possible to both make a public gesture of solidarity and recognition of a problem and do something about it. Nor I think is the gesture entirely empty. Gestures carry meaning and speak to our beliefs and values and what we stand for.
The actual event and the reactions to it are singularly depressing. The idea that every player who takes a knee is being duped by marxists or forced to do it by dictat and only the 'family club' of Millwall are brave enough to expose it by booing the gesture would be laughable if not so grim in my opinion.
Shameful response by Millwall. By avoiding the problem they are saying to the racists (and sorry @HCblue i don’t fully buy your argument that it doesn’t mean they are) “okay, yea we agree it doesn’t matter any more.”
After yesterday it matters now more than fucking ever.
(And apologies to those on here who dislike swearing).
Agree with @bookertease here. Really disappointing that Milwall have decided not to take the knee going forwards. After what happened today it would have made for an even more powerful statement to stand up to racism not just in society, but at their own club.
Well, racism has been on footballs agenda for at least 20 years now, (possibly longer), in some form or another. Kneeling, TV campaigns, T-shirts, badges, community programmes by football clubs plus probably countless other efforts that my memory fails to touch on. Many top former black players have been involved in TV media campaigns & players unions, Brendon Batson, Cyrille Regis, Garth Crooks and I expect more. Yet here we are in 2020, still debating the same/similar issues.
Whilst the efforts undoubtedly have made significant progress, (I have been watching top flight footie since the early 1970's), the utopian dream of ridding the issue completely is exactly that, a goal that I doubt, will be achieved IMHO.
The Human race is essentially tribal, it's in the DNA of humans. Whilst there is a vast majority of say white people in the UK, for example, the tolerance levels will mean that in general peace will be the major dynamism. I do believe, looking at history, when the indigenous population feel under threat be it in numbers or "power positions", unrest occurs. Currently the popular mass perceived threat in Europe is religious based, Muslim rising numbers, (which is predominantly Asian & black ethnicity), will evolve as black/brown against the white indigenous population. Like wars, there will always be some hostility around the world, just as surely as there will be racism as long as humans roam the earth.
I am with @HCblue in the opinion that there will always be footballers, (as with the general population), that will have a racist undertone in them & not all who "take the knee" do so because of their sincere desire to stop racism. Team/popular pressure will inevitably take a part in their decision to do so.
I say this as someone who has people watched most of my 60+ years and despaired at the cruelty that humans, even in recent times, (WW1, India, WW2, Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia as examples), inflict on each other.
I am not saying that we should just give up, but I just think that there is a certain air of inevitability that, hard as we try as a community, it will always exist.
Millwall should be using footage to identify who was booing (if you tell that with masks on!) and deal with them. It will no doubt be a minority.
To instead just bin the gesture off entirely is an amazing decision.
Yes actions against racism are more important than a gesture. But what actions are they proposing when they still clearly have an issue on their own doorstep.
Wouldn't an option be to have some undercover police in the crowd who could identify/arrest those carrying out racist offences. The offenders could then be charged and named and shamed.
Idea probably to simplistic and a further strain on police resources. Also not sure any copper would be too keen in mixing with these animals in the Den.
This isn't about wether players should take the knee, in this case they have stated pretty clearly that they want to and why and it should be respected by fans and their manager.
As people have said before you can normally easily do the maths on people who proudly are anti-anti-racism and the rushed out excuses are all backed up and parrotted by the usual suspects.
Or as history shows surely when the 'indigenous' population are made to feel falsely under threat and cynically fired up by lying racist politicians @EwanHoosaami . I have only witnessed a tiny bit of the social media abuse and harassment my colleagues regularly get and were it an option I would take the knee if only to show solidarity.
Genuine question - do you think the Millwall fans were virtue signalling?
As a reminder you defined it as, “The phrase is meant to suggest that a person is trying to raise the esteem in which they are held, including by themself, by signalling some kind of popular opinion on an ethical subject in the public eye.”
I’m still troubled by the use of this phrase to mock and dismiss, but it is interesting to try and apply it to far right views as well to see where the boundaries lie.
These racist fans are a disgrace. Anyone who holds one race superior and another inferior is ignoble. Until this philosophy is discredited and abandoned there will be conflict. BM
The proportion of Milwall fans disrespecting the call for unity and solidarity and instead giving their voice of dissent to the near universal understanding that taking the knee is is pro inclusion and anti racist is alarming.
The fact that this was at the Den, before their fans' first match since March makes it all the more poignant. Now that the racists have "come out", albeit behind their masks, the question is what action to take as football society.
To discredit the racist boo boys may well be to abandon them; perhaps the police could affirm their commitment to tackling racism by finding out who the offenders are so that Milwall FC can do just that.
Would seem pretty convenient if the three letters BLM can be a movement where any wrongdoing by any supporter means it should be dismissed but long standing anti-immigrant and racist groups with histories of violence and international links, and their racist sympathisers are somehow painted as downtrodden salt of the earth. Still remember the anti-march in aid of defending statues by getting pissed up and peeing all over one.
Anyone who claims BLM is Marxist is either an irredeemably credulous halfwit or using this obviously ridiculous assertion as a convenient way to hide their obvious racism. It’s qanon nonsense, and if you follow the paper trail leads you all the way back to out and out nazi conspiracy theories like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
@Wendoverman said:
Or as history shows surely when the 'indigenous' population are made to feel falsely under threat and cynically fired up by lying racist politicians @EwanHoosaami .
Agreed in general, but not always that simple. Power & control, for me, are the driving factors in most conflicts around our globe, closely followed by religious beliefs.
Dr congo. Er the women who set up BLM literally said they are fully trained in marxism and support its values and to destroy the western idea of what families are. That being said. What the players are doing is for the right cause to highlight racism in football which does need to be addressed. The millwall fans and the ones stood by watching it should hang their heads in literal shame. Imagine the good fans who waited to get back in and this happens. Just a sick situation.
Not surprising that this happened once fans returned and event less surprising which set of fans got there first.
Clubs like Millwall with significant elements like this are going to face a crisis point soon where they have to choose between banning large portions of fans who consider themselves the hardcore, and sponsorship/ commercial partners.
I'd like to think, in fact I'm pretty certain, that if a few morons decided to boo at AP they'd end up leaving the ground pretty swiftly, either because of the stewards asking them directly, or because of the welcome they'd receive from fellow fans, but that won't be the case everywhere. If and when away fans return and clubs like Millwall carry on turning a blind eye, there could be serious issues...
Genuine question - do you think the Millwall fans were virtue signalling?
As a reminder you defined it as, “The phrase is meant to suggest that a person is trying to raise the esteem in which they are held, including by themself, by signalling some kind of popular opinion on an ethical subject in the public eye.”
I’m still troubled by the use of this phrase to mock and dismiss, but it is interesting to try and apply it to far right views as well to see where the boundaries lie.
Hope everyone's had a good day.
Hi, @Lloyd2084. The tag of virtue signalling, when correctly directed, is a proper criticism to be made of a person whose primary intention is to signal to their in-group that they hold the "right" opinions rather than to make an argument in good faith or from as secure a position of reason as possible. It is capable of applying to anyone though it is most often to be seen in people wishing to be seen as progressive. At Millwall, I think it's more likely, if the category of person existed, that any insincere booers might be more properly said to have been acting under peer pressure than to have been virtue signalling.
Without the benefit of knowing any of the people involved nor their motives nor having witnessed the event, I could not say more.
I am a little surprised at the number of posters in this thread who have suggested that the police might have anything to say about the matter of football fans booing an event of which they disapproved, however boorish or ill-judged it might have been. The law hasn't gone that far yet, though the Scottish government seems keen to criminalise having the wrong opinions as soon as it can.
Comments
Than you must have very dim memories of childhood and a dim awareness of adulthood (though, from my admiring memory of your every succinct utterance, I don't think it so).
Well this is awfully convenient isn't it Gary
It might be seen that way. At worst it is craven avoidance of tacking a problem within the club and supporter base. At best it is simplistic. It is possible to both make a public gesture of solidarity and recognition of a problem and do something about it. Nor I think is the gesture entirely empty. Gestures carry meaning and speak to our beliefs and values and what we stand for.
The actual event and the reactions to it are singularly depressing. The idea that every player who takes a knee is being duped by marxists or forced to do it by dictat and only the 'family club' of Millwall are brave enough to expose it by booing the gesture would be laughable if not so grim in my opinion.
Even by your standards, that's a lot of men of straw, @Wendoverman!
It happened at Col U as well
Shameful response by Millwall. By avoiding the problem they are saying to the racists (and sorry @HCblue i don’t fully buy your argument that it doesn’t mean they are) “okay, yea we agree it doesn’t matter any more.”
After yesterday it matters now more than fucking ever.
(And apologies to those on here who dislike swearing).
Agree with @bookertease here. Really disappointing that Milwall have decided not to take the knee going forwards. After what happened today it would have made for an even more powerful statement to stand up to racism not just in society, but at their own club.
Well, racism has been on footballs agenda for at least 20 years now, (possibly longer), in some form or another. Kneeling, TV campaigns, T-shirts, badges, community programmes by football clubs plus probably countless other efforts that my memory fails to touch on. Many top former black players have been involved in TV media campaigns & players unions, Brendon Batson, Cyrille Regis, Garth Crooks and I expect more. Yet here we are in 2020, still debating the same/similar issues.
Whilst the efforts undoubtedly have made significant progress, (I have been watching top flight footie since the early 1970's), the utopian dream of ridding the issue completely is exactly that, a goal that I doubt, will be achieved IMHO.
The Human race is essentially tribal, it's in the DNA of humans. Whilst there is a vast majority of say white people in the UK, for example, the tolerance levels will mean that in general peace will be the major dynamism. I do believe, looking at history, when the indigenous population feel under threat be it in numbers or "power positions", unrest occurs. Currently the popular mass perceived threat in Europe is religious based, Muslim rising numbers, (which is predominantly Asian & black ethnicity), will evolve as black/brown against the white indigenous population. Like wars, there will always be some hostility around the world, just as surely as there will be racism as long as humans roam the earth.
I am with @HCblue in the opinion that there will always be footballers, (as with the general population), that will have a racist undertone in them & not all who "take the knee" do so because of their sincere desire to stop racism. Team/popular pressure will inevitably take a part in their decision to do so.
I say this as someone who has people watched most of my 60+ years and despaired at the cruelty that humans, even in recent times, (WW1, India, WW2, Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia as examples), inflict on each other.
I am not saying that we should just give up, but I just think that there is a certain air of inevitability that, hard as we try as a community, it will always exist.
Millwall should be using footage to identify who was booing (if you tell that with masks on!) and deal with them. It will no doubt be a minority.
To instead just bin the gesture off entirely is an amazing decision.
Yes actions against racism are more important than a gesture. But what actions are they proposing when they still clearly have an issue on their own doorstep.
Still no response from 'upstairs' at the club
Wouldn't an option be to have some undercover police in the crowd who could identify/arrest those carrying out racist offences. The offenders could then be charged and named and shamed.
Idea probably to simplistic and a further strain on police resources. Also not sure any copper would be too keen in mixing with these animals in the Den.
This isn't about wether players should take the knee, in this case they have stated pretty clearly that they want to and why and it should be respected by fans and their manager.
As people have said before you can normally easily do the maths on people who proudly are anti-anti-racism and the rushed out excuses are all backed up and parrotted by the usual suspects.
Or as history shows surely when the 'indigenous' population are made to feel falsely under threat and cynically fired up by lying racist politicians @EwanHoosaami . I have only witnessed a tiny bit of the social media abuse and harassment my colleagues regularly get and were it an option I would take the knee if only to show solidarity.
@HCblue
Genuine question - do you think the Millwall fans were virtue signalling?
As a reminder you defined it as, “The phrase is meant to suggest that a person is trying to raise the esteem in which they are held, including by themself, by signalling some kind of popular opinion on an ethical subject in the public eye.”
I’m still troubled by the use of this phrase to mock and dismiss, but it is interesting to try and apply it to far right views as well to see where the boundaries lie.
These racist fans are a disgrace. Anyone who holds one race superior and another inferior is ignoble. Until this philosophy is discredited and abandoned there will be conflict. BM
The proportion of Milwall fans disrespecting the call for unity and solidarity and instead giving their voice of dissent to the near universal understanding that taking the knee is is pro inclusion and anti racist is alarming.
The fact that this was at the Den, before their fans' first match since March makes it all the more poignant. Now that the racists have "come out", albeit behind their masks, the question is what action to take as football society.
To discredit the racist boo boys may well be to abandon them; perhaps the police could affirm their commitment to tackling racism by finding out who the offenders are so that Milwall FC can do just that.
"And we 'ate ClU, an' we 'ate ClU..."
Would seem pretty convenient if the three letters BLM can be a movement where any wrongdoing by any supporter means it should be dismissed but long standing anti-immigrant and racist groups with histories of violence and international links, and their racist sympathisers are somehow painted as downtrodden salt of the earth. Still remember the anti-march in aid of defending statues by getting pissed up and peeing all over one.
Anyone who claims BLM is Marxist is either an irredeemably credulous halfwit or using this obviously ridiculous assertion as a convenient way to hide their obvious racism. It’s qanon nonsense, and if you follow the paper trail leads you all the way back to out and out nazi conspiracy theories like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Agreed in general, but not always that simple. Power & control, for me, are the driving factors in most conflicts around our globe, closely followed by religious beliefs.
Dr congo. Er the women who set up BLM literally said they are fully trained in marxism and support its values and to destroy the western idea of what families are. That being said. What the players are doing is for the right cause to highlight racism in football which does need to be addressed. The millwall fans and the ones stood by watching it should hang their heads in literal shame. Imagine the good fans who waited to get back in and this happens. Just a sick situation.
What does fully trained in Marxism mean? I studied it at university but I’m afraid I might only be part-qualified.
Should have spent less time down the pub and more time studying then...
Not surprising that this happened once fans returned and event less surprising which set of fans got there first.
Clubs like Millwall with significant elements like this are going to face a crisis point soon where they have to choose between banning large portions of fans who consider themselves the hardcore, and sponsorship/ commercial partners.
I'd like to think, in fact I'm pretty certain, that if a few morons decided to boo at AP they'd end up leaving the ground pretty swiftly, either because of the stewards asking them directly, or because of the welcome they'd receive from fellow fans, but that won't be the case everywhere. If and when away fans return and clubs like Millwall carry on turning a blind eye, there could be serious issues...
well if our own government will enable it...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice
Did he manage to blame the EU negotiators?
Hope everyone's had a good day.
Hi, @Lloyd2084. The tag of virtue signalling, when correctly directed, is a proper criticism to be made of a person whose primary intention is to signal to their in-group that they hold the "right" opinions rather than to make an argument in good faith or from as secure a position of reason as possible. It is capable of applying to anyone though it is most often to be seen in people wishing to be seen as progressive. At Millwall, I think it's more likely, if the category of person existed, that any insincere booers might be more properly said to have been acting under peer pressure than to have been virtue signalling.
Without the benefit of knowing any of the people involved nor their motives nor having witnessed the event, I could not say more.
I am a little surprised at the number of posters in this thread who have suggested that the police might have anything to say about the matter of football fans booing an event of which they disapproved, however boorish or ill-judged it might have been. The law hasn't gone that far yet, though the Scottish government seems keen to criminalise having the wrong opinions as soon as it can.
That seems quite well put, on the whole.
Stopped reading that when they tried to condone it and wheeled out Les Ferdinand to try and defend themselves further.
It's absolutely disgusting - but also not surprising when the club themselves try to brush it under the carpet.