Part of the problem for anyone watching, IMHO, is that we don't have a clear understanding of what VAR is to be used for.
Sometimes it's expressed as eliminating "clear and obvious errors" sometimes "ruling on contentious decisions". These would be two very different uses, and there are many other opinions expressed in what it's to be used for.
It's still a big mess for me, I'd rather not have it.
In your opinion. Not in the opinion of the referee. Decisions are subjective.
you must agree surely that it is more likely that referees will get the decision right more often if they have actually seen precisely what happened rather than forming that judgement in real time with one look often from far away sometimes with view obscured.
The rugby method of a ref asking to see a particular offence, angle or piece of play and explaining whilst microphoned up clearly is the way to go if we have to keep this at all. Thought this sums it up well.
They are admitting to 4 VAR errors so far this season, and possibly another 1 to be added from this weekend.
5 for the season isn't exactly numerous, but it's not perfect.
If we think VAR is being used wrongly and I personally do, spare a thought for the poor team in Bundesliga 2 over this past weekend. I am sure someone of a more technical nature can post the clip, but in summary the attacking team had a shot which went about 10 yards wide of the goal. The defending teams substitutes were warming up behind the goal, as the ball is crossing the goal line one of the substitutes traps the ball and passes it back to the goalkeeper for the goal kick.
The referee consults his pitch side screen to determine whether the whole of the ball has gone over the goal line for a goal kick, determines that it hasn’t (it was close one way or the other) he then returns to the pitch, books the substitute, presumably for entering the field of play by a matter of inches and awards the attacking team a penalty because a ‘foul’ has been committed inside the area! The attacking team thus scored a goal from this incident thanks solely to a VAR assist!!
For decisions that are not clear and obvious errors VAR should be steering well clear, but here and in Europe it seems it’s just being used on wrong occasions.
@DevC said:
I agree that football as a game of feeling, emotions and amazing highs and lows. @Right_in_the_Middle. I think the elimination of key refereeing errors and elimination (or at least reduction) in diving and other cheating is worth the odd short delay.
I fully respect your right to differ in that view. As always advantages and disadvantages to each. Finding the right balance is the key.
It's not the actual delay that is the biggest problem. It's the killing of that moment whilst someone miles away decides whst happened on a TV screen while thousands sit in a stadium oblivious to what is going on.
How many key and obvious decisions go wrong in a season? Have Wycombe had any this season?
Beware, once they've stamped out cheating, gamesmanship and mistakes (honest/dishonest) it will mean there are no players we love to hate, no managers getting angry on the touchline, no unfair results, nothing left to luck or chance and then they'll come for your crisps.
This "we have to get all decisions right" mantra has become almost cult-like
No we don't. And we certainly don't if the by-product is not being able to celebrate goals properly anymore.
Get standards of refereeing and assistant refereeing as high as you can, be able to live in the moment as a fan as you've always been able to without fear of having it taken away from you in 2 minutes time by someone in front of a tv hundreds of miles away, and put up with occasionally losing out when marginal decisions go against you
All this hysteria about having to get every decision right is total bullshit, created by the media and parroted by fans who are unable to think for themselves
Is VAR reducing controversy at matches?
Is VAR adding to the match experience for paying fans in the stadium?
For me it's an emphatic 'no' to both questions. It's completely ruining football at the top level and making it an unviewable, frustrating mess. It should be binned at the end of the season, sadly I think it will stay and we're now stuck with it.
“...but I think football is a good enough game that it should be remembered for moments of skill by players not for errors by referees.”
And that statement explains why I will never agree with you on VAR @DevC.
I can vividly remember an occasion when a linesman gave a goal kick instead of a corner to us midway through the second half at home to Dulwich Hamlet. It was an absolutely appalling decision and the 14 year old me was incensed by it (probably for days, maybe even years).
That is ALL I can remember about the game (other than it was dry and not under floodlights).
I respect your view that football should be all about skill but it’s not for me. It’s about memories. And these come from mistakes (Bayo missing a free header from 1 yard out at Doncaster last year) just as much as moments of skill (Freeman’s pass to Scotty for our winner against Southend this season).
and Man C's goal against Aston Villa given to the player who the referee and VAR stated had not touched the ball. Hence the goal was offside but not awarded until 2 hours after the match end.
I think football is a great game in itself, But I want it to be a contest between the footballing skills and mistakes of the 22 players. I don't want it to be a contest between the diving skills of the players and the human frailties of the referees.
In ensuring it isn't I really don't care whether the referee making the decision is located in the stadium or hundreds of miles away. I agree though that the key incident should be shown on a screen to as many people in the stadium as possible while the key decision is being made, ideally with the referee miked up and explaining what he is considering and has seen.
Personally I think when a player or manager gets a yellow card for 'dissent' the game should be stopped and the miked-up referee should have to say on the tannoy what the person is alleged to have said and a lip-reader and an EFL official somewhere in a booth in Bracknell should check video of the said incident before the game goes on to check the accuracy of the claim and ensure that what one persons decides is dissent is actually dissent. We would then be able to trust beyond doubt that a yellow card was deserved and it would possibly prevent players and managers being sent off for two doubtful yellows unnecessarily. (The EFL has yet to respond to my suggestion)
“I don't want it to be a contest between the diving skills of the players and the human frailties of the referees.”
You don’t need VAR for that. A simple citing system post-match, bans for players clearly proved to have simulated a dive AND hefty, ever-increasing fines for their managers, and it would disappear in 2-3 seasons with absolutely no impact on the spectator experience.
The problem with football is, that for every decision where a clear mistake has been corrected, there's another 10 decisions that are not so black and white and rather than a quick call made on the pitch by the referee which we can all argue over later, we're having a decision made, then waiting in confusion whilst someone, somewhere watches it in slow motion from 7 different angles and makes a decision that we're still all going to be arguing over! What's the point?
Clear cases of diving or violence if missed can be dealt with post match. One could argue that doesn't help the aggrieved team, but there's nothing like a good injustice to liven up a dull match anyway. As has been said above, by trying to make football 'perfect' we're losing what we all (well most of us!) love about the game.
The point @wycombe85 is that that judgemental but important decision is being judged by a referee being able to see exactly what happened rather than one expected to make a judgement based on a split second imperfect viewing.
I think that is worth a short delay. You don't. Fair enough.
@DevC said:
The point @wycombe85 is that that judgemental but important decision is being judged by a referee being able to see exactly what happened rather than one expected to make a judgement based on a split second imperfect viewing.
I think that is worth a short delay. You don't. Fair enough.
You keep talking about this 'short delay' whereas others talk about the loss of that moment. What do you actually think about a goal being scored and the celebration that follows is lost by a 'short delay' to see if the goal scorers nose is offside? Does that loss actually bother you?
You keep talking about this 'short delay' whereas others talk about the loss of that moment. What do you actually think about a goal being scored and the celebration that follows is lost by a 'short delay' to see if the goal scorers nose is offside? Does that loss actually bother you?
Football is a low scoring game. I think it is vital that we do what we reasonably can to ensure that goals scored are valid within the laws of the game.
from what I remember of instances where the referee has consulted with the linesman after a goal is scored to decide whether it should be allowed, rather than detracting from the celebration, the suspense and then release enhanced it. This feels like the modern day equivalent.
There is no right or wrong here though. My view is that giving referees a chance to make more informed decisions on key marginal decisions is worth the disadvantages. you don't.
The problem with the VAR argument is that all the rational reasoning would general support it in principle (disregarding the current shambolic interpretation).
The arguments against it tend to be more emotional.
It all depends where your view of football slides along that line of business - entertainment/support as to what degree you support VAR or not.
Personally I am more than happy to live with the occasional refereeing error as it makes my football watching (and talking about) overall richer but I accept there is a counter view.
Incidentally. Are there more refereeing errors now that we do have VAR in the Premier League? Logic (and my fear) is that referees become deskilled as its use grows
@bookertease said:
The problem with the VAR argument is that all the rational reasoning would general support it in principle (disregarding the current shambolic interpretation).
The arguments against it tend to be more emotional.
It all depends where your view of football slides along that line of business - entertainment/support as to what degree you support VAR or not.
Personally I am more than happy to live with the occasional refereeing error as it makes my football watching (and talking about) overall richer but I accept there is a counter view.
Incidentally. Are there more refereeing errors now that we do have VAR in the Premier League? Logic (and my fear) is that referees become deskilled as its use grows
The outrages and being hard done by, where all part of the game.
The goal line tech is superb, as that's so instant. A shame they can't bring that in at all pro levels.
Officials have a get out of jail card now. Linesman seem to have been instructed not to bother flagging if there's any doubt.
We're touchline tech away from linesmen actually having no point in being involved.
Comments
But there's been many instances of VAR not even getting the decision right on review.
It will come as no surprise after this weekend that the PL are going to review the policy on pitch side monitors.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/premier-league-to-review-policy-on-var-monitors-9x9wzv8ch
Part of the problem for anyone watching, IMHO, is that we don't have a clear understanding of what VAR is to be used for.
Sometimes it's expressed as eliminating "clear and obvious errors" sometimes "ruling on contentious decisions". These would be two very different uses, and there are many other opinions expressed in what it's to be used for.
It's still a big mess for me, I'd rather not have it.
Which ones?
They tend to go with the ref more often than not unless it's "obvious".
In your opinion. Not in the opinion of the referee. Decisions are subjective.
you must agree surely that it is more likely that referees will get the decision right more often if they have actually seen precisely what happened rather than forming that judgement in real time with one look often from far away sometimes with view obscured.
The rugby method of a ref asking to see a particular offence, angle or piece of play and explaining whilst microphoned up clearly is the way to go if we have to keep this at all. Thought this sums it up well.
They are admitting to 4 VAR errors so far this season, and possibly another 1 to be added from this weekend.
5 for the season isn't exactly numerous, but it's not perfect.
No man made system to make subjective decisions ever will be @Twizz
How many key refereeing decisions do they believe they have corrected I wonder.
The key part of your post @Twizz is "They are admitting to"
If we think VAR is being used wrongly and I personally do, spare a thought for the poor team in Bundesliga 2 over this past weekend. I am sure someone of a more technical nature can post the clip, but in summary the attacking team had a shot which went about 10 yards wide of the goal. The defending teams substitutes were warming up behind the goal, as the ball is crossing the goal line one of the substitutes traps the ball and passes it back to the goalkeeper for the goal kick.
The referee consults his pitch side screen to determine whether the whole of the ball has gone over the goal line for a goal kick, determines that it hasn’t (it was close one way or the other) he then returns to the pitch, books the substitute, presumably for entering the field of play by a matter of inches and awards the attacking team a penalty because a ‘foul’ has been committed inside the area! The attacking team thus scored a goal from this incident thanks solely to a VAR assist!!
For decisions that are not clear and obvious errors VAR should be steering well clear, but here and in Europe it seems it’s just being used on wrong occasions.
It's not the actual delay that is the biggest problem. It's the killing of that moment whilst someone miles away decides whst happened on a TV screen while thousands sit in a stadium oblivious to what is going on.
How many key and obvious decisions go wrong in a season? Have Wycombe had any this season?
Beware, once they've stamped out cheating, gamesmanship and mistakes (honest/dishonest) it will mean there are no players we love to hate, no managers getting angry on the touchline, no unfair results, nothing left to luck or chance and then they'll come for your crisps.
This "we have to get all decisions right" mantra has become almost cult-like
No we don't. And we certainly don't if the by-product is not being able to celebrate goals properly anymore.
Get standards of refereeing and assistant refereeing as high as you can, be able to live in the moment as a fan as you've always been able to without fear of having it taken away from you in 2 minutes time by someone in front of a tv hundreds of miles away, and put up with occasionally losing out when marginal decisions go against you
All this hysteria about having to get every decision right is total bullshit, created by the media and parroted by fans who are unable to think for themselves
In the bin with it
Is VAR reducing controversy at matches?
Is VAR adding to the match experience for paying fans in the stadium?
For me it's an emphatic 'no' to both questions. It's completely ruining football at the top level and making it an unviewable, frustrating mess. It should be binned at the end of the season, sadly I think it will stay and we're now stuck with it.
“...but I think football is a good enough game that it should be remembered for moments of skill by players not for errors by referees.”
And that statement explains why I will never agree with you on VAR @DevC.
I can vividly remember an occasion when a linesman gave a goal kick instead of a corner to us midway through the second half at home to Dulwich Hamlet. It was an absolutely appalling decision and the 14 year old me was incensed by it (probably for days, maybe even years).
That is ALL I can remember about the game (other than it was dry and not under floodlights).
I respect your view that football should be all about skill but it’s not for me. It’s about memories. And these come from mistakes (Bayo missing a free header from 1 yard out at Doncaster last year) just as much as moments of skill (Freeman’s pass to Scotty for our winner against Southend this season).
it's a great point by @bookertease
Sometimes imperfection is what makes something perfect.
Things without fault are quite often just a bit creepy
Rashford’s goal for Man Utd against Liverpool last week. Clear foul in the build up. Still given.
and Man C's goal against Aston Villa given to the player who the referee and VAR stated had not touched the ball. Hence the goal was offside but not awarded until 2 hours after the match end.
and that's where I disagree with you and @eric_plant , @bookertease.
I think football is a great game in itself, But I want it to be a contest between the footballing skills and mistakes of the 22 players. I don't want it to be a contest between the diving skills of the players and the human frailties of the referees.
In ensuring it isn't I really don't care whether the referee making the decision is located in the stadium or hundreds of miles away. I agree though that the key incident should be shown on a screen to as many people in the stadium as possible while the key decision is being made, ideally with the referee miked up and explaining what he is considering and has seen.
I don't want it to be a contest between the diving skills of the players and the human frailties of the referees.
Rest assured @DevC the vast majority of the time it's not.
Personally I think when a player or manager gets a yellow card for 'dissent' the game should be stopped and the miked-up referee should have to say on the tannoy what the person is alleged to have said and a lip-reader and an EFL official somewhere in a booth in Bracknell should check video of the said incident before the game goes on to check the accuracy of the claim and ensure that what one persons decides is dissent is actually dissent. We would then be able to trust beyond doubt that a yellow card was deserved and it would possibly prevent players and managers being sent off for two doubtful yellows unnecessarily. (The EFL has yet to respond to my suggestion)
“I don't want it to be a contest between the diving skills of the players and the human frailties of the referees.”
You don’t need VAR for that. A simple citing system post-match, bans for players clearly proved to have simulated a dive AND hefty, ever-increasing fines for their managers, and it would disappear in 2-3 seasons with absolutely no impact on the spectator experience.
The problem with football is, that for every decision where a clear mistake has been corrected, there's another 10 decisions that are not so black and white and rather than a quick call made on the pitch by the referee which we can all argue over later, we're having a decision made, then waiting in confusion whilst someone, somewhere watches it in slow motion from 7 different angles and makes a decision that we're still all going to be arguing over! What's the point?
Clear cases of diving or violence if missed can be dealt with post match. One could argue that doesn't help the aggrieved team, but there's nothing like a good injustice to liven up a dull match anyway. As has been said above, by trying to make football 'perfect' we're losing what we all (well most of us!) love about the game.
The point @wycombe85 is that that judgemental but important decision is being judged by a referee being able to see exactly what happened rather than one expected to make a judgement based on a split second imperfect viewing.
I think that is worth a short delay. You don't. Fair enough.
You keep talking about this 'short delay' whereas others talk about the loss of that moment. What do you actually think about a goal being scored and the celebration that follows is lost by a 'short delay' to see if the goal scorers nose is offside? Does that loss actually bother you?
This one comes down to opinion, and whether a 6ft 2 man should go down like that with a tiny tap to the leg.
Football is a low scoring game. I think it is vital that we do what we reasonably can to ensure that goals scored are valid within the laws of the game.
from what I remember of instances where the referee has consulted with the linesman after a goal is scored to decide whether it should be allowed, rather than detracting from the celebration, the suspense and then release enhanced it. This feels like the modern day equivalent.
There is no right or wrong here though. My view is that giving referees a chance to make more informed decisions on key marginal decisions is worth the disadvantages. you don't.
I guess you are entitled to your opinion @DevC but quite frankly we are so far apart I struggle to see what you get out of football.
As someone famous for their assumptions and what ifs in almost every debate I can't even fathom how you want everything so definate on this.
I suppose the souless millionaires of the top league are the best bed fellows for you.
The problem with the VAR argument is that all the rational reasoning would general support it in principle (disregarding the current shambolic interpretation).
The arguments against it tend to be more emotional.
It all depends where your view of football slides along that line of business - entertainment/support as to what degree you support VAR or not.
Personally I am more than happy to live with the occasional refereeing error as it makes my football watching (and talking about) overall richer but I accept there is a counter view.
Incidentally. Are there more refereeing errors now that we do have VAR in the Premier League? Logic (and my fear) is that referees become deskilled as its use grows
The outrages and being hard done by, where all part of the game.
The goal line tech is superb, as that's so instant. A shame they can't bring that in at all pro levels.
Officials have a get out of jail card now. Linesman seem to have been instructed not to bother flagging if there's any doubt.
We're touchline tech away from linesmen actually having no point in being involved.
A slimline touchline camera that actually keeps up with play will ruin many of our afternoons...