The EFL are now to consult member clubs on whether bury should be readmitted in League 2 next season (subject to evidence of financial security) or have to rebuild from the non-leagues - currently earmarked for one division below Conference North. This follows an impressive campaign from local MP James Frith and Manchester mayor Andy Burnham.
Interesting question this. Who has more right to a League place for 2020/21, Bury or the club finishing 23rd (say Stevenage)?
I think a fair solution is somewhere in-between with Bury starting either in the National league or perhaps better still National North (alongside recent league teams York, Chester, Hereford, Boston,. Kiddy, Southport, Darlington).
@rmjlondon But the FL have also said they need to re look at how they deal with these situations. So I think they will be allowed to rejoin next season.
@mooneyman said: @M3G I suspect if Bury are allowed to rejoin next season, the team ending up 23rd and their lawyers will have something to say about that.
@Shev said:
I think the EFL should be relegated to the sixth tier, with the National League being promoted to run the second, third and fourth tiers.
I understand that will be debated on day three of their senior management team building retreat in the Maldives...straight after the deep tissue massages and before they set off for Casino Night.
I'm not sure the Football League can just put Bury in conference part of the structure. That's run by a separate body. I've always assumed this is was why clubs fall so far down the pyramid.
Regulation 11.1 of the EFL regulations does appear to leave open the possibility of letting Bury join League Two at the start of next season, admitting them as a "new club" to fill the place left by their expulsion from League One.
"11.1 Admission of new Clubs. For so long as the number of Clubs in The League shall be 72 or more no new club shall be admitted as a member of The League to replace a Club ceasing to be a member. In the event of the number of Clubs falling to below 72 the Board shall be empowered to admit clubs as new members up to a maximum number of 72 Clubs. Such new members shall only be admitted prior to the beginning of a Season, and shall play in League Two in their first Season."
@mooneyman said: @M3G I suspect if Bury are allowed to rejoin next season, the team ending up 23rd and their lawyers will have something to say about that.
Taking a neutral view of this, what would be the main objection to them starting again in league 2?
They most likely would have been relegated, and they haven't (I don't think?) ceased to be as an entity entirely? Meaning it'd be the same club still? As distinct from Hereford, who totally went kaput, and took a while to even put a new club together?
May be wrong on the differentiation, but just interested in the angle?
The team finishing 23rd in league 2 next season seems a complete irrelevance?
Your angle is appealing logically, @malone. If they would have been relegated anyway, put them in the position they would have been in. No-one else is adversely affected compared to the position they would have been in had the club played on and been relegated normally.
An obvious argument against is that of deterrent - one would not want there to be too cavalier an attitude to the idea of a club becoming insolvent. It would incentivise reckless spending in the hunt for promotion and clubs falling into Bury's position have a terrible effect on the strength, integrity and confidence of the league generally.
@Malone The team finishing 23rd in league 2 next season seems a complete irrelevance?
As it stands the team who finish 23rd won't be relegated this season but an extra team will be admitted from the conference to replace Bury. If Bury are also admitted then the assumption would be team finishing 23rd get relegated, but could also be no extra steam promoted.
Either way someone other than Bury is currently going to be in League 2 next season. But if Bury are readmitted?
@Twizz , So this season there are simply only 3 teams going down from league 1, but the usual 4 would come up from league 2.
The bottom 2 of league 2 would go down as usual, replaced by 2 from the conference.
If Bury are re-admitted they are simply the usual 4th relegated team.
I don't think either a team who should have been relegated from league 1, or an extra team from the conference can claim any right to the place? They haven't been cheated as such?
@HCblue , I suppose if an owner is reckless enough to have caused the shenanighans that Bury's previous owner caused, (and I think people seem to forget it was the previous owner that was most to blame, because Dale appeared such a heartless asset stripper type.), then they wouldn't be too bothered about what division the club they were ruining would even be in?
@Malone, okay I had misunderstood how the numbers were to be made up.
However, it's still the case that other teams have at least as good a case for election to the EFL as Bury, in my opinion.
@Twizz said: @Malone, okay I had misunderstood how the numbers were to be made up.
However, it's still the case that other teams have at least as good a case for election to the EFL as Bury, in my opinion.
For certain we'll all watch with interest how it pans out.
And try and imagine how we'd feel without a club for a season!
If they do get to re-start in league 2 with a proper owner, they'll have had a fantastic recovery.
I hate to say it but Bury should not be permitted back into League 2. There has got to be a credible penalty on the playing side for missing games and damaging the credibility of the league structure. I take no pleasure in saying it whatsoever but there has got to be a bottom line to all this at which point a team fails to meet the minimum criteria for being in the league and is expelled.
I don’t think it would be unreasonable for them to apply to go into the conference next season if they can satisfy that league that they can complete the season. That would allow for 4 teams to exit league 1 (3 relegated, plus Bury) and the normal 4 teams up from League 2. In turn, League 2 would only relegate one team, allowing the Conference to receive 2 team (both the relegated side, plus Bury). That would leave League Two losing only 5 teams this season (4 promoted, 1 relegated) and gaining 5 (three down from Lg 1, plus two promoted from the conference).
Indeed @Glenactico as it was Bolton actually playing games that gave them a bit more leeway I reckon...with their bosses lying about the state of the takeover.
I would like to add, it isn't acceptable to overspend and leave local & possibly National businesses with a huge debt. The deterrent has to be meaningful, though like others above have said, it is unpalatable to say it.
The Football League will be making the wrong decision if they basically allow Bury a free relegation. It sets such a bad example for club governance and opens a loop hole for other clubs to bankrupt themselves for promotion and write off years of debt to go back to where they were.
There may be a very small number of people with pre existing mental health issues for whom this will be the final straw. But this is surely an OTT reaction.
I'm sorry but being sad and disappointed about something don't count as mental health issues.
There may be a very small number of people with pre existing mental health issues for whom this will be the final straw. But this is surely an OTT reaction.
I'm sorry but being sad and disappointed about something don't count as mental health issues.
Always best to leave these matters to people who know what they are talking about. However sad or odd you might think people are because they dedicate their life to their club and have not much else going on we all obsess a bit at times and get comfort where we can. If people need help, and others want to help what harm are they doing anyone else.
Comments
He was the manager !!!
The EFL are now to consult member clubs on whether bury should be readmitted in League 2 next season (subject to evidence of financial security) or have to rebuild from the non-leagues - currently earmarked for one division below Conference North. This follows an impressive campaign from local MP James Frith and Manchester mayor Andy Burnham.
Interesting question this. Who has more right to a League place for 2020/21, Bury or the club finishing 23rd (say Stevenage)?
I think a fair solution is somewhere in-between with Bury starting either in the National league or perhaps better still National North (alongside recent league teams York, Chester, Hereford, Boston,. Kiddy, Southport, Darlington).
not a chance they will be allowed to restart in League 2, the FA made Hereford start at the bottom and the clubs are very similar sized.
@rmjlondon But the FL have also said they need to re look at how they deal with these situations. So I think they will be allowed to rejoin next season.
@M3G I suspect if Bury are allowed to rejoin next season, the team ending up 23rd and their lawyers will have something to say about that.
Southend fans want them back in League One....NOW!!!!
Or whoever wins the Conference play-offs.
A two League drop and they start in the Conference with -12 points would seem to be fair in my mind.
I think the EFL should be relegated to the sixth tier, with the National League being promoted to run the second, third and fourth tiers.
I understand that will be debated on day three of their senior management team building retreat in the Maldives...straight after the deep tissue massages and before they set off for Casino Night.
I'm not sure the Football League can just put Bury in conference part of the structure. That's run by a separate body. I've always assumed this is was why clubs fall so far down the pyramid.
Regulation 11.1 of the EFL regulations does appear to leave open the possibility of letting Bury join League Two at the start of next season, admitting them as a "new club" to fill the place left by their expulsion from League One.
"11.1 Admission of new Clubs. For so long as the number of Clubs in The League shall be 72 or more no new club shall be admitted as a member of The League to replace a Club ceasing to be a member. In the event of the number of Clubs falling to below 72 the Board shall be empowered to admit clubs as new members up to a maximum number of 72 Clubs. Such new members shall only be admitted prior to the beginning of a Season, and shall play in League Two in their first Season."
Allowing Bury back in to League Two next season can't happen can it?
Taking a neutral view of this, what would be the main objection to them starting again in league 2?
They most likely would have been relegated, and they haven't (I don't think?) ceased to be as an entity entirely? Meaning it'd be the same club still? As distinct from Hereford, who totally went kaput, and took a while to even put a new club together?
May be wrong on the differentiation, but just interested in the angle?
The team finishing 23rd in league 2 next season seems a complete irrelevance?
Your angle is appealing logically, @malone. If they would have been relegated anyway, put them in the position they would have been in. No-one else is adversely affected compared to the position they would have been in had the club played on and been relegated normally.
An obvious argument against is that of deterrent - one would not want there to be too cavalier an attitude to the idea of a club becoming insolvent. It would incentivise reckless spending in the hunt for promotion and clubs falling into Bury's position have a terrible effect on the strength, integrity and confidence of the league generally.
@Malone The team finishing 23rd in league 2 next season seems a complete irrelevance?
As it stands the team who finish 23rd won't be relegated this season but an extra team will be admitted from the conference to replace Bury. If Bury are also admitted then the assumption would be team finishing 23rd get relegated, but could also be no extra steam promoted.
Either way someone other than Bury is currently going to be in League 2 next season. But if Bury are readmitted?
@Twizz , So this season there are simply only 3 teams going down from league 1, but the usual 4 would come up from league 2.
The bottom 2 of league 2 would go down as usual, replaced by 2 from the conference.
If Bury are re-admitted they are simply the usual 4th relegated team.
I don't think either a team who should have been relegated from league 1, or an extra team from the conference can claim any right to the place? They haven't been cheated as such?
@HCblue , I suppose if an owner is reckless enough to have caused the shenanighans that Bury's previous owner caused, (and I think people seem to forget it was the previous owner that was most to blame, because Dale appeared such a heartless asset stripper type.), then they wouldn't be too bothered about what division the club they were ruining would even be in?
I see Bolton have appointed Keith hill and have recruited ten players. Suspect points will be harder to get in our return match!
@Malone, okay I had misunderstood how the numbers were to be made up.
However, it's still the case that other teams have at least as good a case for election to the EFL as Bury, in my opinion.
For certain we'll all watch with interest how it pans out.
And try and imagine how we'd feel without a club for a season!
If they do get to re-start in league 2 with a proper owner, they'll have had a fantastic recovery.
I hate to say it but Bury should not be permitted back into League 2. There has got to be a credible penalty on the playing side for missing games and damaging the credibility of the league structure. I take no pleasure in saying it whatsoever but there has got to be a bottom line to all this at which point a team fails to meet the minimum criteria for being in the league and is expelled.
I don’t think it would be unreasonable for them to apply to go into the conference next season if they can satisfy that league that they can complete the season. That would allow for 4 teams to exit league 1 (3 relegated, plus Bury) and the normal 4 teams up from League 2. In turn, League 2 would only relegate one team, allowing the Conference to receive 2 team (both the relegated side, plus Bury). That would leave League Two losing only 5 teams this season (4 promoted, 1 relegated) and gaining 5 (three down from Lg 1, plus two promoted from the conference).
Indeed @Glenactico as it was Bolton actually playing games that gave them a bit more leeway I reckon...with their bosses lying about the state of the takeover.
I would like to add, it isn't acceptable to overspend and leave local & possibly National businesses with a huge debt. The deterrent has to be meaningful, though like others above have said, it is unpalatable to say it.
The Football League will be making the wrong decision if they basically allow Bury a free relegation. It sets such a bad example for club governance and opens a loop hole for other clubs to bankrupt themselves for promotion and write off years of debt to go back to where they were.
Sad as it is...they will have to do a Wombles/Hereford
Yet if the temporary owners get away with no recriminations where is the deterrantanyway?
Yeah, people did this, not clubs, not fans, high time some of the frauds saw some jail time
I'm sure they mean well, but if this report is to be believed then it's no wonder that NHS resources are overstretched.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49586279
There may be a very small number of people with pre existing mental health issues for whom this will be the final straw. But this is surely an OTT reaction.
I'm sorry but being sad and disappointed about something don't count as mental health issues.
Always best to leave these matters to people who know what they are talking about. However sad or odd you might think people are because they dedicate their life to their club and have not much else going on we all obsess a bit at times and get comfort where we can. If people need help, and others want to help what harm are they doing anyone else.