It’s more than just nice sentiments though isn’t it. Two similar clubs in AFC Wimbledon and Exeter City manage to be fan owned year on year without throwing up their hands and saying its unsustainable.
Is there something particularly different about South Bucks or our club’s situation that makes us so different?
@TheatreOfChairs said:
It’s more than just nice sentiments though isn’t it. Two similar clubs in AFC Wimbledon and Exeter City manage to be fan owned year on year without throwing up their hands and saying its unsustainable.
Is there something particularly different about South Bucks or our club’s situation that makes us so different?
The release of playing staff the manager wanted to keep for financial reasons indicates yes there is
Fan owned but not fan run, or fan engaged has been the model. You watch the football, we'll run the club was the mantra. Whether that was right or wrong it is only one way to operate as a fan owned club, and as such only that way can be criticised or praised.
It is likely now that the minority owners will run the club, and we watch the football.
@TheatreOfChairs said:
It’s more than just nice sentiments though isn’t it. Two similar clubs in AFC Wimbledon and Exeter City manage to be fan owned year on year without throwing up their hands and saying its unsustainable.
Is there something particularly different about South Bucks or our club’s situation that makes us so different?
The release of playing staff the manager wanted to keep for financial reasons indicates yes there is
Or it could be that the Boards of Wimbledon and Exeter have higher calibre Directors than we do?
I’ve no idea about that, nor do I have an axe to grind with the Board. I’ve met many of the directors and they generally seem to be good people.
It just concerns me that we’re jumping to the conclusion that we have to sell up based on the assumption that it’s impossible to stay supporter owned when there are two very clear examples of that not being the case.
Surely there needs to be a bit more scrutiny than saying it has to happen simply because we couldn’t offer Paris Cowan Hall a new contract?
@TheatreOfChairs said:
It’s more than just nice sentiments though isn’t it. Two similar clubs in AFC Wimbledon and Exeter City manage to be fan owned year on year without throwing up their hands and saying its unsustainable.
Is there something particularly different about South Bucks or our club’s situation that makes us so different?
The release of playing staff the manager wanted to keep for financial reasons indicates yes there is
Or it could be that the Boards of Wimbledon and Exeter have higher calibre Directors than we do?
Do folk realise how much players at our level get paid? It's sport, a short career and driven by the top end. The old days of picking up experienced players for not too much as the fall down the leagues has gone. A league club is a multi million pound business that the full time staff rely upon for their livelihoods. It's not a fan based hobby.
I cannot see a successful way ahead as a fan owned model unless we have at least 10,000 members paying at least £100 a year into it (or some very well off supporters funding). We've got some good support here but the numbers are way too low to hope for financial success. Sorry but that's how I see it.
No need whatsoever to be sorry @ValleyWanderer. I may be wrong but my understanding is that the two clubs singled out above (AFC Wimbledon and Exeter City) are in a very different situation from the one we are in. There may be modest returns coming our way in respect of sell-on fees (ie for Kortney Hause and Matt Ingram) but these will pale into insignificance compared with the football fortune resulting from multimillion transfer fees in recent seasons and TV income received by Exeter City and the £million pound plus which Wimbledon’s terrific FA Cup run generated last season, not to mention the substantial input from their Chairman (or possibly one of their other directors). And let’s not get started on Portsmouth!
If people want us to be challenging for promotion to the championship, then yes, a magic unicorn investor is probably required. And don't be too angry when we lose our ground or end up in administration, of worse.
If people want a decent size lower football league club somewhere between mid table league two and the bottom of league one, then that's what we are under fan ownership. Nobody can present any evidence that this cannot carry on. And I'll state again, we got promoted last year as a fan owned club.
I have the impression that Exeter and particularly Wimbledon are better run than us.
Would it be true to say that both Exeter and Wimbledon still run a youth set up and the graduates of these help keep the wage bill down as well as providing the odd bit of 'football fortune' when they are sold on.
Just for the record, I resigned as a Trust director because a number of Trust board directors (who still serve on the board) falsely accused me of handing out copies of a legal letter outside an away match.
This lie was concocted because I questioned the Training Ground deal.
If I had my time again I would do exactly the same thing.
We are where we are because of the decisions we have made in spite of footballing fortune and having an exceptional on-pitch managers in Gareth Ainsworth and Richard Dobson. Without Richard Dobson producing players where would we be?
We closed down the youth set-up in spite of the fact the parents clubbed together to keep it going at no cost to the club.
We failed to build a commercial side - look at what we charge for stand sponsorships, front of shirt etc. in League 1
We borrow £500,000 from Americans against the stadium without telling members and now we've borrowed hundreds of thousands of pounds from Mr. Couhig.
Without telling members. Again.
Other people have been asked for money and when they said yes they were told it wasn't needed!!!
Any investors have to be vetted by you-know-who and we know what a disaster that can be as this is exactly how we became a supporters-trust owned club in the first place.
When you have the same people making the same decisions you are going to get the same mistakes.
Mr. Harman's deal was "misrepresented" to the Trust board by about £500,000 and now Mr. Couhig, who until May this year wanted to buy Yeovil, has done a deal whereby he buys WWFC on a very similar deal to the one the board recently rejected from Harman.
Mr. Harman -ex-player and local - never stood a chance as he wasn't anointed which is why he was forced to go direct to the fans.
You wonder if he had agreed to a new debt re-schedule whether that might have helped him over the line.
The Trust took over ownership of the club to protect the legacy of Frank Adams, namely the ownership of Adams Park. They were looking for a buyer even in 2013. selling a minority share will not avoid retaining Adams park if the Club eventually goes under due to further trading losses which are not backed up by the owners. The only sensible way forward is to retain Adams Park in the hands of the Trust and sell the voting shares at a value which clears all existing debts relating to Adams Park.
Just for the record, I resigned as a Trust director because a number of Trust board directors (who still serve on the board) falsely accused me of handing out copies of a legal letter outside an away match.
This lie was concocted because I questioned the Training Ground deal.
If I had my time again I would do exactly the same thing.
We are where we are because of the decisions we have made in spite of footballing fortune and having an exceptional on-pitch managers in Gareth Ainsworth and Richard Dobson. Without Richard Dobson producing players where would we be?
We closed down the youth set-up in spite of the fact the parents clubbed together to keep it going at no cost to the club.
We failed to build a commercial side - look at what we charge for stand sponsorships, front of shirt etc. in League 1
We borrow £500,000 from Americans against the stadium without telling members and now we've borrowed hundreds of thousands of pounds from Mr. Couhig.
Without telling members. Again.
Other people have been asked for money and when they said yes they were told it wasn't needed!!!
Any investors have to be vetted by you-know-who and we know what a disaster that can be as this is exactly how we became a supporters-trust owned club in the first place.
When you have the same people making the same decisions you are going to get the same mistakes.
Mr. Harman's deal was "misrepresented" to the Trust board by about £500,000 and now Mr. Couhig, who until May this year wanted to buy Yeovil, has done a deal whereby he buys WWFC on a very similar deal to the one the board recently rejected from Harman.
Mr. Harman -ex-player and local - never stood a chance as he wasn't anointed which is why he was forced to go direct to the fans.
You wonder if he had agreed to a new debt re-schedule whether that might have helped him over the line.
@ValleyWanderer said:
Do folk realise how much players at our level get paid? It's sport, a short career and driven by the top end. The old days of picking up experienced players for not too much as the fall down the leagues has gone. A league club is a multi million pound business that the full time staff rely upon for their livelihoods. It's not a fan based hobby.
I cannot see a successful way ahead as a fan owned model unless we have at least 10,000 members paying at least £100 a year into it (or some very well off supporters funding). We've got some good support here but the numbers are way too low to hope for financial success. Sorry but that's how I see it.
Private ownership has been very successful for the likes of Notts County, Bury, Bolton, Coventry etc!
@mooneyman: when “copying down” comments from fellow Gasroomers it is superfluous (and arguably discourteous) to introduce a name other than their username.
@Cambridge_Blue: you say “Perhaps we need some new faces in charge”. Perhaps we do but how do you suggest we bring this about? Recent experience suggests that people within the membership are not exactly queuing up. And, to be honest, I am still puzzled as to why (and with what motivation) there are apparently outsiders in addition to Messrs Couhig and Palmer waiting in the wings.
Wimbledon are currently selling the naming rights of their toilets to supporters.
This could be an example of them managing the commercials of their club better than us, or it could be evidence they are not as financially healthy as some on here are making out.
It all depends on how you want to perceive it, doesn't it? Without an in-depth knowledge of the finances no-one really knows for sure.
Am I right in saying that this is a done deal? As I read it because Mr Couhig is taking less than a majority share the board isn’t putting his participation to a trust members vote and the meeting is just a consultation. That’s the implication I’m getting but I could be wrong.
@micra said: @mooneyman: when “copying down” comments from fellow Gasroomers it is superfluous (and arguably discourteous) to introduce a name other than their username.
I have no idea what you are on about.
As far as I am aware (@drcongo will correct me if I am wrong) there are no "rules" regarding "copying down" comments. However, I will accept that I may be discourteous at times as I am not blessed with being a paragon of virtue unlike your good self.
@perfidious_albion said:
Does anyone know if you can join the trust on Thursday night and so gain entry to the meeting?
Yes you can. It will save time if you complete the form before you come. You will need to pay the current year's membership fee and sign a standing order to commence on 1st November and then annually after that. Someone has supplied to link to the form above.
Comments
It’s more than just nice sentiments though isn’t it. Two similar clubs in AFC Wimbledon and Exeter City manage to be fan owned year on year without throwing up their hands and saying its unsustainable.
Is there something particularly different about South Bucks or our club’s situation that makes us so different?
The release of playing staff the manager wanted to keep for financial reasons indicates yes there is
Fan owned but not fan run, or fan engaged has been the model. You watch the football, we'll run the club was the mantra. Whether that was right or wrong it is only one way to operate as a fan owned club, and as such only that way can be criticised or praised.
It is likely now that the minority owners will run the club, and we watch the football.
Or it could be that the Boards of Wimbledon and Exeter have higher calibre Directors than we do?
I’ve no idea about that, nor do I have an axe to grind with the Board. I’ve met many of the directors and they generally seem to be good people.
It just concerns me that we’re jumping to the conclusion that we have to sell up based on the assumption that it’s impossible to stay supporter owned when there are two very clear examples of that not being the case.
Surely there needs to be a bit more scrutiny than saying it has to happen simply because we couldn’t offer Paris Cowan Hall a new contract?
Yes that’s one explanation
Do folk realise how much players at our level get paid? It's sport, a short career and driven by the top end. The old days of picking up experienced players for not too much as the fall down the leagues has gone. A league club is a multi million pound business that the full time staff rely upon for their livelihoods. It's not a fan based hobby.
I cannot see a successful way ahead as a fan owned model unless we have at least 10,000 members paying at least £100 a year into it (or some very well off supporters funding). We've got some good support here but the numbers are way too low to hope for financial success. Sorry but that's how I see it.
No need whatsoever to be sorry @ValleyWanderer. I may be wrong but my understanding is that the two clubs singled out above (AFC Wimbledon and Exeter City) are in a very different situation from the one we are in. There may be modest returns coming our way in respect of sell-on fees (ie for Kortney Hause and Matt Ingram) but these will pale into insignificance compared with the football fortune resulting from multimillion transfer fees in recent seasons and TV income received by Exeter City and the £million pound plus which Wimbledon’s terrific FA Cup run generated last season, not to mention the substantial input from their Chairman (or possibly one of their other directors). And let’s not get started on Portsmouth!
If people want us to be challenging for promotion to the championship, then yes, a magic unicorn investor is probably required. And don't be too angry when we lose our ground or end up in administration, of worse.
If people want a decent size lower football league club somewhere between mid table league two and the bottom of league one, then that's what we are under fan ownership. Nobody can present any evidence that this cannot carry on. And I'll state again, we got promoted last year as a fan owned club.
I have the impression that Exeter and particularly Wimbledon are better run than us.
“There are none so blind as those who will not see”. I rest my case.
Would it be true to say that both Exeter and Wimbledon still run a youth set up and the graduates of these help keep the wage bill down as well as providing the odd bit of 'football fortune' when they are sold on.
Please feel free to dismiss this.
Just for the record, I resigned as a Trust director because a number of Trust board directors (who still serve on the board) falsely accused me of handing out copies of a legal letter outside an away match.
This lie was concocted because I questioned the Training Ground deal.
If I had my time again I would do exactly the same thing.
We are where we are because of the decisions we have made in spite of footballing fortune and having an exceptional on-pitch managers in Gareth Ainsworth and Richard Dobson. Without Richard Dobson producing players where would we be?
We closed down the youth set-up in spite of the fact the parents clubbed together to keep it going at no cost to the club.
We failed to build a commercial side - look at what we charge for stand sponsorships, front of shirt etc. in League 1
We borrow £500,000 from Americans against the stadium without telling members and now we've borrowed hundreds of thousands of pounds from Mr. Couhig.
Without telling members. Again.
Other people have been asked for money and when they said yes they were told it wasn't needed!!!
Any investors have to be vetted by you-know-who and we know what a disaster that can be as this is exactly how we became a supporters-trust owned club in the first place.
When you have the same people making the same decisions you are going to get the same mistakes.
Mr. Harman's deal was "misrepresented" to the Trust board by about £500,000 and now Mr. Couhig, who until May this year wanted to buy Yeovil, has done a deal whereby he buys WWFC on a very similar deal to the one the board recently rejected from Harman.
Mr. Harman -ex-player and local - never stood a chance as he wasn't anointed which is why he was forced to go direct to the fans.
You wonder if he had agreed to a new debt re-schedule whether that might have helped him over the line.
It's Groundhog Day.
The Trust took over ownership of the club to protect the legacy of Frank Adams, namely the ownership of Adams Park. They were looking for a buyer even in 2013. selling a minority share will not avoid retaining Adams park if the Club eventually goes under due to further trading losses which are not backed up by the owners. The only sensible way forward is to retain Adams Park in the hands of the Trust and sell the voting shares at a value which clears all existing debts relating to Adams Park.
Who says we have borrowed from the new investor ?????
Does anyone know if you can join the trust on Thursday night and so gain entry to the meeting?
you would have to be a S/T holder in your 4th year to get into the meeting
I don't believe this is correct. My understanding is that the meeting is open to all trust members, not only legacy members.
That is my understanding as well, hence the question. Anyone know?
1
Private ownership has been very successful for the likes of Notts County, Bury, Bolton, Coventry etc!
All Trust members have been invited
Yes, but can I join the trust on the night pre meeting to gain entry??
@perfidious_albion I don't know but can't see why you can't join today
http://www.wycombewandererstrust.com/trust-membership
@perfidious_albion have you tried asking John Big all the Trust's membership secretary. Why not Emil him on [email protected]
I'll even provide a link to the membership form
http://wycombewandererstrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Membership-Form-2019-V2.doc
Thanks to all the above for the advice & contacts.
@mooneyman: when “copying down” comments from fellow Gasroomers it is superfluous (and arguably discourteous) to introduce a name other than their username.
@Cambridge_Blue: you say “Perhaps we need some new faces in charge”. Perhaps we do but how do you suggest we bring this about? Recent experience suggests that people within the membership are not exactly queuing up. And, to be honest, I am still puzzled as to why (and with what motivation) there are apparently outsiders in addition to Messrs Couhig and Palmer waiting in the wings.
Wimbledon are currently selling the naming rights of their toilets to supporters.
This could be an example of them managing the commercials of their club better than us, or it could be evidence they are not as financially healthy as some on here are making out.
It all depends on how you want to perceive it, doesn't it? Without an in-depth knowledge of the finances no-one really knows for sure.
Am I right in saying that this is a done deal? As I read it because Mr Couhig is taking less than a majority share the board isn’t putting his participation to a trust members vote and the meeting is just a consultation. That’s the implication I’m getting but I could be wrong.
I have no idea what you are on about.
As far as I am aware (@drcongo will correct me if I am wrong) there are no "rules" regarding "copying down" comments. However, I will accept that I may be discourteous at times as I am not blessed with being a paragon of virtue unlike your good self.
Yes you can. It will save time if you complete the form before you come. You will need to pay the current year's membership fee and sign a standing order to commence on 1st November and then annually after that. Someone has supplied to link to the form above.