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Fleetwood / Joey Barton

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  • @Chris I entirely agree with you with the examples you cite. I think Hennessey was being an arse and should just have said i thought it was funny but to say I'm too thick to know what it means is ridiculous. 'I did not know they were hissing at spurs fans I thought there was a leak somewhere.' As for the p word I remember some old boy saying 'you can't say w*g anymore.' I said you can but knowing it's offensive why would you? How would you like it if I asked how your bitch was instead of your wife? Is it my right to say that? Lots of beard stroking...

  • @eric_plant said:

    @Malone said:
    It is interesting how words are deemed acceptable or non acceptable.
    It all comes down to history and connotations, plus also intentions.

    Pole, Brit, Aussie, Spaniard are all fine, the "p" word, which is taken from a country name after all, like the former examples, not at all fine. Similar with a word for Chinese people.
    What's the difference? Colour and connotations.

    Even, more borderline descriptions, like Kraut, Yank, Frog etc are all widely still used.

    I'd say that one massive difference is that for years "Paki" was used as an insult by the national front type thugs, often accompanied by violence. You can't just ignore all that baggage and say it's the same as Aussie

    That is a massive DevC like generalisation. Having grown up in High Wycombe I know and knew many who would use that term without any threat of violence or even malice. It was simply the word that generation used.

  • Which part of what I said are you disagreeing with exactly?

  • Genuine question: when was the last time you heard any racist language at a Wycombe game (from a Wycombe fan)? Last I ever heard was a teenage lad in the old Woodlands terrace (so early 90s) who used the P word against a linesman. And hearteningly was immediately shouted down by a good 4 or 5 people near him.

  • I have never heard racist language at a Wycombe game from a Wycombe fan

  • @MindlessDrugHoover said:
    Genuine question: when was the last time you heard any racist language at a Wycombe game (from a Wycombe fan)? Last I ever heard was a teenage lad in the old Woodlands terrace (so early 90s) who used the P word against a linesman. And hearteningly was immediately shouted down by a good 4 or 5 people near him.

    Only heard racist stuff from a Wycombe supporter once I can remember.

    White Hart Lane for the FA cup game a few years ago. East Asian guy was on the same train. Not sure if he was attending the game as a Spurs supporter, but a very drunk, fairly young lad began singing a Son Heung Min chant about eating dogs and such.

    Was very embarrassing. Luckily I don't think the poor chap's English was good enough to understand anything that was going on, and the drunkard's friends were apologising, trying to shut him up, and telling him he was being a total c**t.

  • I heard a Wycombe fan stood behind me at an away game at Charlton (so guessing it was 2011/2012 season) call someone a 'black ****'. I turned round, but couldn't be sure who'd said it, although I had my suspicions - one of the young lads who used to play at being Danny Dyer - although I haven't actually seen him at a game for several years, so guessing he either got bored or got banned.

  • guy behind me at the last game of the season in the year we missed out to Col U on goal difference (Witton maybe?) . We were winning easily but so were Col U. Drunk and pretty obnoxious all game. Midway through second half for no obvious reason started making monkey noises. My first instinct was to tell him to shut up. My second instinct was to wonder if that had been a good idea. Fortunately he was quiet for the rest of the game.

  • @eric_plant said:
    I have never heard racist language at a Wycombe game from a Wycombe fan

    I have twice.

    An old guy in what is now the family stand losing his cool when Steve Brown got booked again, calling him "that p@ki man", which made no sense on any level!!

    And an unsavoury guy who is well "In" with some of our troublesome pack, who had some comments to the Luton fans on the makeup of their town.
    A steward didn't like it, so "pushed" him and told him to shutup, which he did. Although his mate obviously turned a deaf ear to what was said, and made a thing of the push"

    Say what you like about Luton, but their marshals are exceptionally tolerant generally.
    I remember watching this kid called Lewis - well known to any frequent away fans (banned from home games) spend 45mins abusing everyone, kicking walls, abusing his own fans (and being threatened), and it was only at half time they removed him!

    Also, and I think this one can definitely be filed in the "borderline" folder, I've twice been on a coach with OWWSA to Luton, and some of the comments about the high street would have definitely caused an HR department to have kittens.

  • @Malone OWWSA do not tolerate that kind of behaviour and if you had brought it to the attention of the coach steward then the matter would have been properly dealt with. Please don't let it put you, or anyone, off travelling with OWWSA in the future.

  • edited April 2019

    I recall only two incidents at Wycombe that I was aware of, both of which occurred in the terrace during the late '90s. In both cases other Wycombe fans were quick to close them down.

    In one instance, someone shouted something at a black player (opposition player, I think) and a guy who was stood in front of him took exception, turned round and chinned him. I don't usually condone violence, but there was no doubt that it got the message across about the comments being unacceptable.

    In the other instance, someone who used to attend pretty much every match for several years and stand in the same place and was well known by those who stood in the same area of the terrace shouted, "you lazy black b*****d!" at a Wycombe player and was very quickly told by those around him that this was in no way acceptable. He looked very sheepish for the remainder of the match and I never saw him there again.

    EDIT: The second incident was probably actually early 2000s.

  • Back in my teens when football was still affordable to the masses, me and a few mates would often go up to London to watch a game if Wycombe weren't at home. Must have been 81 or 82, we went to see Palace play Chelsea and Chelsea had their first ever black player Paul Canoville on the bench. When he came on, Chelsea fans, en masse, were booing him, screaming abuse and making monkey noises. How the poor lad coped I have no idea but I've hated Chelsea above and beyond any other club since. I know the club have worked hard to erase that element in their crowd but can't help thinking, given more recent incidents, that many of them are still there and haven't changed a bit since their NF days.

  • @MindlessDrugHoover I know my home team Forest were never at the forefront of elevated thinking even when Viv was playing, but a game I went to at Chelsea when Gullit was playing (!) was the worse I can ever recall. Mark Stein (who was on their bench) warming up to boos and calls of 'don;t put that ****ing c*** on...' and various chants aimed at the Spurs team they were playing. Never went in the home end again....

  • @Cyclops, I think borderline was the key word, and it didn't overstep a line as such, but it was just a general undercurrent of comment. Awkward to bring to anyone's attention, but just felt a little uncomfortable.
    But yes - wouldn't put me off the coaches which are generally a great service.

    Juuust soo early when you have to be there 40mins before the set off time as everyone else is!!

  • It seems surprising in some ways the level of racist abuse in the "old" days, but when you hear the level of foul mouthed abuse in general even today, perhaps not.
    I dare say most of the racism has gone underground, online and suchlike, to be spewed anonymously these days - although there are one or two re-occurrences that creep out.

  • I have a colleague who just sighed when I said you don't see much overt racism nowadays...he gets it on a daily basis at various levels. As a child brought up in the 1970s casual racism across society was the norm...so though it's not the 'norm' now...it's not gone away.

  • Presuming you're a white man @Wendoverman , then i dare say it's a difficult thing for you to say. As largely you won't experience it.

    It's probably similar with sexism as well. Women don't see what we have to endure these days ;)

  • @Malone indeed on both counts :wink::wink:

  • @Shev said:
    The world is full of some people being offended on someone else's behalf, and other people apologizing on someone else's behalf.

    I should specify I was referring to people being offended on behalf of people who are not offended, and apologizing on behalf of people who are not apologetic. From a couple of comments, I realized that could be taken more than one way.

    If anyone is offended, I will get someone to apologize on my behalf!

  • @Wendoverman said:
    I have a colleague who just sighed when I said you don't see much overt racism nowadays...he gets it on a daily basis at various levels. As a child brought up in the 1970s casual racism across society was the norm...so though it's not the 'norm' now...it's not gone away.

    It never did. Worryingly it seems to be becoming more acceptable to verbalise it again. I caught a radio programme where a researcher who has been running focus groups on Brexit noted that defining oneself or family as racist was part of the discourse for some and went unchallenged by others. And no I am not conflating Brexiteers with racists. Another anecdote, my mother-in-law’s neighbour, nice bloke, help you out any time sort of a fella recently revealed he spends a week away each year with German far right groups. These of course are exceptions of behaviour that have always been with us. What is concerning is that such exceptions can be expressed more openly. I suggest there is a correlation with political discourse that promotes conflict and ‘shouting down’ over the desire to listen and debate. A position taken by both ‘left’ and ‘right’. I am as concerned by ‘no platforming’ as I am by the mother-in-law’s neighbour.

  • You couldn't make it up. Coming to a TV screen near you https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47983144

  • I'm offended! Oops, sorry wrong thread!

  • @Brownie said:
    You couldn't make it up. Coming to a TV screen near you https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47983144

    Might explain why Fleetwood took the risk! Win win for them, especially if Joseph did apply the Tesco Pierre in the tunnel...

  • edited April 2019

    @Malone said:
    I'd say I covered that with
    "It all comes down to history and connotations, plus also intentions."

    Coincidentally enough, I remember watching highlights of a one day game in Australia in the late '80s. It was England v Pakistan, I believe, in a triangular series - certainly Pakistan were involved. Anyway, Tony Greig, I think, was doing the commentary at a moment when the Pakistanis went up for an appeal for caught behind or similar. Greig's excited exclamation of "The Pakis think it's out!" surprised me greatly, as an eighteen year old with a pretty well-developed understanding that that word was only to be used by National Front/ skinhead types and in a series of unconscionable jokes then popular among clever and funny white sixth formers. What was apparent was that the word seemed not to have, in Australia, the wholly negative and derogatory connotations that it had here and to be wholly unexceptionable. Context matters.

  • @HCblue said:

    @Malone said:
    I'd say I covered that with
    "It all comes down to history and connotations, plus also intentions."

    Coincidentally enough, I remember watching highlights of a one day game in Australia in the late '80s. It was England v Pakistan, I believe, in a triangular series - certainly Pakistan were involved. Anyway, Tony Greig, I think, was doing the commentary at a moment when the Pakistanis went up for an appeal for caught behind or similar. Greig's excited exclamation of "The Pakis think it's out!" surprised me greatly, as an eighteen year old with a pretty well-developed understanding that that word was only to be used by National Front/ skinhead types and in a series of unconscionable jokes then popular among clever and funny white sixth formers. What was apparent was that the word seemed not to have, in Australia, the wholly negative and derogatory connotations that it had here and to be wholly unexceptionable. Context matters.

    That's along the lines of Geoff Hurst being on some panel back in the day and using a phrase along the lines of the "N@gger in the woodpile", to not even a second glance from anyone.

    Though not as confusing as hearing John Barnes after the Suarez-Evra thing blew up saying race was a "construct" anyway. A guy who received surely as much racist abuse as anyone, suddenly acting like race isn't even a thing, in some strange bid to defend a player from the club he once starred for.

  • Interesting. What about the use of Taff, Jock and or Paddy? Are these allowable or deemed racist? The French call the English (sometimes) roast beef.....I'm not offended by that so is using slang etc to denote another nationality allowed or not.... I guess it comes down to intent but some have delicate sensibilities.
    When I lived in the US a few years ago I got into it with a septic in a bar in Boston and he called me Limey, his intent was to insult but I was perfectly fine with it, referencing our historical knowledge of nutrition aboard ship......

  • In a civilised society we should refer to people’s race, gender of sexuality in accordance with their preferences. I appreciate it is a movable feast and sometimes we may not know the current term but most reasonable people would accept that, maybe inform us and we would hopefully use that term next time.

    Using our own term of reference knowing it is wrong is disrespectful and impolite at best offensive and threatening at worst.

  • @Manboobs no platforming where someone isn't banned from doing their own thing but isn't welcome at certain venues or universities , largely due to preaching hate and murder isn't anywhere near as bad as actively supporting groups that preach the hate, its a nice idea that everyone can say what they like when they like however offensive but try it at work. Imagine going to a uni and seeing the NF on at the union. Also the idea that it's basically all the same is how you end up with Trump.

    Anyway enjoy the footy, think we've stretched this beyond any need.

  • @StrongestTeam said:
    @Manboobs no platforming where someone isn't banned from doing their own thing but isn't welcome at certain venues or universities , largely due to preaching hate and murder isn't anywhere near as bad as actively supporting groups that preach the hate, its a nice idea that everyone can say what they like when they like however offensive but try it at work. Imagine going to a uni and seeing the NF on at the union. Also the idea that it's basically all the same is how you end up with Trump.

    Anyway enjoy the footy, think we've stretched this beyond any need.

    What constitutes "offensive" is, I suggest, in the eye of the beholder. People or groups that actually do "preach hate and murder" are pretty thin on the ground: could you name one, specifying precisely the hateful or murderous nature of their positions?

    By which, of course, I mean to suggest that the growing number of attempts to no-platform speakers, and the other associated attempts to seek to suppress speech by ascribing hateful or murderous properties to it, are a significant risk to a society that seeks to arrive at an understanding of the truth through the free exchange of ideas, good and bad.

  • edited April 2019

    You surely let everything go, or you do your best to cut out the hate speech.
    It's fairly easy to establish the latter, as they've generally broken laws.

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