@Sherrinford - What level/category is Exeter's academy as they seem to be doing exceptionally well bringing on players and then selling for huge sums (at our level). They may be just incredibly lucky, or is it simply the exception that proves the rule that academies are not cost effective?
@mooneyman said: @Sherrinford - What level/category is Exeter's academy as they seem to be doing exceptionally well bringing on players and then selling for huge sums (at our level). They may be just incredibly lucky, or is it simply the exception that proves the rule that academies are not cost effective?
Look at their location in the country. I suspect they benefit from having quite a large geographical area with very little in the way of opposing clubs.
I’m less optimistic after listening to Phil’s interview with Andrew Harman. The main areas that Harman talks about are generating extra non-footballing income, and the academy. I remain extremely doubtful that there is potential sufficient non-footballing income to cover our current annual deficits, and if anything setting up and running an academy is likely to be a drain on resources rather than a revenue generating project.
I wasn’t at the presentation, so I’m sure there was more detail and nuance last night - although picking up on one little snippet from @DJWYC14’s report, how much money do they think can be made from stadium tours? We aren’t Barcelona.
Would it be fair to say our academy made a profit over the last 5 or 10 years of its life given sales of Ibe, Phillips, Ingram, scowen & Martin at a stretch as they spent time there?
@StrongestTeam said:
Would it be fair to say our academy made a profit over the last 5 or 10 years of its life given sales of Ibe, Phillips, Ingram, scowen & Martin at a stretch as they spent time there?
EPP changed the landscape of academy financial viability for smaller clubs.
Unfortunately, lovely as this area is, we do suffer in terms of “gates” and the ability to attract talented young players as a result of accessibility to big clubs within a relatively small radius.
This may be a very simplistic way of looking at things, but isn't there really only one question to ask of all parties (including the status quo)?
"Are you prepared to lose around £500,000 of your own money every year for the 'fun' of owning/running a lower league football team?"
Unless the answer is yes, we either have to worry about what to do when the owner gets bored/skint (which I think is where we are with the current set-up), accept that our natural place in the scheme of things may be a bit lower down the pyramid than we would actually like, or basically go bust.
@bookertease I fear that is often the reality of football ownership across the board! I would imagine that is what is worrying most people (or perhaps just me) about the vote....what if I make the wrong decision....what if this all goes terribly wrong...? I don't think the Academy is a goer at this point myself...but Mr Harman may be forced to agree with that in the short-term should he take over. Let's see what the colonists have to offer. (I assume if they or someone close to them was at the meeting, they are doing a bit of bid revision this weekend!)
You may not be losing £500k EVERY YEAR though. By the law of averages in the space of five years you will have one good cup run and/or one good player sale.
I think you have to hope that when one owner loses interest after losing money for a few years then another mug will turn up!
The American's are obviously confident that they can stabilise us and then sell on at a profit. We then lose total control of future ownership. With Harman's bid we retain majority control (but hopefully not with the current Chairman).
@drcongo said:
You’ll be waiting a very long time @glasshalffull, and if it hadn’t been for @marlowchair we wouldn’t have any of the facts at this point. Thank god not everyone around this club is as happy to just sit on their hands as you are.
What part of waiting to hear what the Americans have to offer is ‘just sitting’ on my hands?
The meeting last night outlined the - but others can fact check - the experience they have in the academy area - ex Wycombe player Ken Wilson (currently Elite Performance Scout for the Scottish FA for junior players) according to others that took notes.. proposed as Academy Director
Seemed to know exactly what they were getting into.
Perhaps Phil Catchpole or someone with access to A Harman can propose a site were he can post his full'proposal' at same time/after Americans bid - all he was asking for last night was for opportunity for Legacy members to hear about this proposal rather than through rumours and forum sites! As he is asking for a minority stake he does not actually need 75% of the Legacy Trust to vote for his offer..which he would place as bid if allowed by Board to conduct due diligence on current club finances ...but he wanted the Legacy Trust to now about it anyway.
Roll on the details of the Americans' bid then.
As without the context of that, we can't judge at all what the better option is, despite the now growing clamour for this Harman option.
The American's are obviously confident that they can stabilise us and then sell on at a profit. We then lose total control of future ownership. With Harman's bid we retain majority control (but hopefully not with the current Chairman).
I've always believed that the American's project was based on stabilisation, smallish investment to get us to Championship, then sell on for profit
If it were a normal business then this is pretty standard practise.
Footballs clubs are always going to be viewed (whether they are or aren't is a thread all of its own!!) as differnet to the way us fans view them.
I'm certainly not saying that I support the Amercian's offer, anymore than I would currently support AH's offer (on paper its looks good, but it does verge on too good to be true), but I can see what they look to be thinking of.
@Malone not sure it's a clamour...(that's a tad Dev-ish) just people are interested in what he had to say...it sounded good and they have been unhappy about the way this has been handled. The yanks offer comes up to snuff, I would still expect a majority to vote it through.
@glasshalfempty said: @mooneyman Based upon last night's presentation, Andrew Harman would take on the role of Chairman should his proposal be adopted.
I’m of the thinking. This being why Trev doesn’t like it. He loses his job
I believe the suggestion mentioned above was either a category 3 or 4 academy.
A category 4 academy is a decent halfway house between not having an academy at all and going the whole hog.
Basically it means a limited set-up that just operates in the 16 to 18 age range instead of category 1,2 and 3 which all operate from age 8 upwards.
Obviously its much cheaper to operate but comes with the challenge of finding players as other clubs will have snapped up most of the talent between 8 and 16.
Although I'm told there are some decent players playing in the WWSET set-up but because there's no route into professional football being offered they often drift off and sign with other professional club academies if they get an offer.
We'd also have the ability to sign any players not taken on at 16 by other clubs. As we've seen in the past players like Roger Johnson, Kortney Hause, and Jordon Ibe were in other clubs' academies before signing for Wycombe.
@bookertease said:
This may be a very simplistic way of looking at things, but isn't there really only one question to ask of all parties (including the status quo)?
"Are you prepared to lose around £500,000 of your own money every year for the 'fun' of owning/running a lower league football team?"
Unless the answer is yes, we either have to worry about what to do when the owner gets bored/skint (which I think is where we are with the current set-up), accept that our natural place in the scheme of things may be a bit lower down the pyramid than we would actually like, or basically go bust.
This sums it up for me. I don’t quite know how football has got into this state, but it’s where we are.
@Elmo1 said:
I’ll just make one point if the club is always going to lose money why would two American business be interested in buying it
I can answer that @Elmo1 - At Derby County, the club lost millions under their ownership, but they still flipped it for more than £10m profit in a few short years.
We do have potential - its getting to the Championship that realises a decent selling price.
The investment required to get there isn't, I suspect, that much.
The club is fortunate that Marlow and NiceCarrots had the guts to reveal the shady goings on at Board level.
Instead of burying your head in the sand and steadfastly maintaining your mates on the Board are paragons of virtue, you should at least be considering the points raised last night by Andrew Harman and others with the club at heart. They can't all be wrong.
I have not buried my head in the sand nor have I steadfastly maintained that my ‘mates’ on the board are paragons of virtue. Those are your words, not mine.
I have simply said that the American bid deserves a fair hearing and that accusations of ‘shady goings on at board level’ are manifestly unproven.
Of course I have read with interest what Andy had to say last night and I’ve already said that I know him reasonably well and consider him to be a good guy.
You say that I should be considering the points raised by people with ‘the club at heart’. Don’t you think that I fall into that category? I have followed Wycombe for over 40 years and spent over half that time as a director.
WWFC is a very big part of my life and I refute any suggestion that I’d do something that wasn’t in the club’s best interests.
Comments
Morning @Micra. Good to see you in attendance last night. Link to the audio is posted by me higher up in this thread...
@Sherrinford - What level/category is Exeter's academy as they seem to be doing exceptionally well bringing on players and then selling for huge sums (at our level). They may be just incredibly lucky, or is it simply the exception that proves the rule that academies are not cost effective?
Look at their location in the country. I suspect they benefit from having quite a large geographical area with very little in the way of opposing clubs.
I’m less optimistic after listening to Phil’s interview with Andrew Harman. The main areas that Harman talks about are generating extra non-footballing income, and the academy. I remain extremely doubtful that there is potential sufficient non-footballing income to cover our current annual deficits, and if anything setting up and running an academy is likely to be a drain on resources rather than a revenue generating project.
I wasn’t at the presentation, so I’m sure there was more detail and nuance last night - although picking up on one little snippet from @DJWYC14’s report, how much money do they think can be made from stadium tours? We aren’t Barcelona.
Would it be fair to say our academy made a profit over the last 5 or 10 years of its life given sales of Ibe, Phillips, Ingram, scowen & Martin at a stretch as they spent time there?
I would imagine Ibe alone would be enough. But that was before EPPP I believe.
EPP changed the landscape of academy financial viability for smaller clubs.
Unfortunately, lovely as this area is, we do suffer in terms of “gates” and the ability to attract talented young players as a result of accessibility to big clubs within a relatively small radius.
This may be a very simplistic way of looking at things, but isn't there really only one question to ask of all parties (including the status quo)?
"Are you prepared to lose around £500,000 of your own money every year for the 'fun' of owning/running a lower league football team?"
Unless the answer is yes, we either have to worry about what to do when the owner gets bored/skint (which I think is where we are with the current set-up), accept that our natural place in the scheme of things may be a bit lower down the pyramid than we would actually like, or basically go bust.
So would this academy idea be along the lines of FAB or the okd Glenn Hoddle Academy back in the day?
@bookertease I fear that is often the reality of football ownership across the board! I would imagine that is what is worrying most people (or perhaps just me) about the vote....what if I make the wrong decision....what if this all goes terribly wrong...? I don't think the Academy is a goer at this point myself...but Mr Harman may be forced to agree with that in the short-term should he take over. Let's see what the colonists have to offer. (I assume if they or someone close to them was at the meeting, they are doing a bit of bid revision this weekend!)
You may not be losing £500k EVERY YEAR though. By the law of averages in the space of five years you will have one good cup run and/or one good player sale.
I think you have to hope that when one owner loses interest after losing money for a few years then another mug will turn up!
The American's are obviously confident that they can stabilise us and then sell on at a profit. We then lose total control of future ownership. With Harman's bid we retain majority control (but hopefully not with the current Chairman).
What part of waiting to hear what the Americans have to offer is ‘just sitting’ on my hands?
The meeting last night outlined the - but others can fact check - the experience they have in the academy area - ex Wycombe player Ken Wilson (currently Elite Performance Scout for the Scottish FA for junior players) according to others that took notes.. proposed as Academy Director
Seemed to know exactly what they were getting into.
Perhaps Phil Catchpole or someone with access to A Harman can propose a site were he can post his full'proposal' at same time/after Americans bid - all he was asking for last night was for opportunity for Legacy members to hear about this proposal rather than through rumours and forum sites! As he is asking for a minority stake he does not actually need 75% of the Legacy Trust to vote for his offer..which he would place as bid if allowed by Board to conduct due diligence on current club finances ...but he wanted the Legacy Trust to now about it anyway.
Roll on the details of the Americans' bid then.
As without the context of that, we can't judge at all what the better option is, despite the now growing clamour for this Harman option.
@mooneyman Based upon last night's presentation, Andrew Harman would take on the role of Chairman should his proposal be adopted.
100% yes!
I've always believed that the American's project was based on stabilisation, smallish investment to get us to Championship, then sell on for profit
If it were a normal business then this is pretty standard practise.
Footballs clubs are always going to be viewed (whether they are or aren't is a thread all of its own!!) as differnet to the way us fans view them.
I'm certainly not saying that I support the Amercian's offer, anymore than I would currently support AH's offer (on paper its looks good, but it does verge on too good to be true), but I can see what they look to be thinking of.
@Malone not sure it's a clamour...(that's a tad Dev-ish) just people are interested in what he had to say...it sounded good and they have been unhappy about the way this has been handled. The yanks offer comes up to snuff, I would still expect a majority to vote it through.
I’m of the thinking. This being why Trev doesn’t like it. He loses his job
I believe the suggestion mentioned above was either a category 3 or 4 academy.
A category 4 academy is a decent halfway house between not having an academy at all and going the whole hog.
Basically it means a limited set-up that just operates in the 16 to 18 age range instead of category 1,2 and 3 which all operate from age 8 upwards.
Obviously its much cheaper to operate but comes with the challenge of finding players as other clubs will have snapped up most of the talent between 8 and 16.
Although I'm told there are some decent players playing in the WWSET set-up but because there's no route into professional football being offered they often drift off and sign with other professional club academies if they get an offer.
We'd also have the ability to sign any players not taken on at 16 by other clubs. As we've seen in the past players like Roger Johnson, Kortney Hause, and Jordon Ibe were in other clubs' academies before signing for Wycombe.
This sums it up for me. I don’t quite know how football has got into this state, but it’s where we are.
I’ll just make one point if the club is always going to lose money why would two American business be interested in buying it
I can answer that @Elmo1 - At Derby County, the club lost millions under their ownership, but they still flipped it for more than £10m profit in a few short years.
Somehow don’t think WWFC has that potential. It’s gotta be for fun, hasn’t it?
We do have potential - its getting to the Championship that realises a decent selling price.
The investment required to get there isn't, I suspect, that much.
I too think we have the potential to squeak into the Championship. Staying there? Not so much....but what a season that would be.
Can I just reiterate that Derby County Football Club lost millions.
We’d probably have to lose a million or two to get to the Championship!
I have not buried my head in the sand nor have I steadfastly maintained that my ‘mates’ on the board are paragons of virtue. Those are your words, not mine.
I have simply said that the American bid deserves a fair hearing and that accusations of ‘shady goings on at board level’ are manifestly unproven.
Of course I have read with interest what Andy had to say last night and I’ve already said that I know him reasonably well and consider him to be a good guy.
You say that I should be considering the points raised by people with ‘the club at heart’. Don’t you think that I fall into that category? I have followed Wycombe for over 40 years and spent over half that time as a director.
WWFC is a very big part of my life and I refute any suggestion that I’d do something that wasn’t in the club’s best interests.