After receiving an email from Nigel Kingston about not continuing club 500 as "the playing budget for this year has been set at a level which we beleive will be sufficient to cope with the demands of league 1" so club 500 is not necessary, how come that we are in such a bad financial position? Surely that indicates that we have money. Also, if it is decided to sell a majority of the club, will we still be expected to pay into the share scheme? Can't see anyone wanting to help make potencial owners more money.
Will certainly be more difficult to persuade people to donate in a number of ways if someone else is taking out a profit. Not sure this has been covered in the lengthy discussions here.
I’d be interested to hear Lisa Bowker’s views on this aspect. Life could be very different for her. Her dedication and commitment are unparalleled at this club and possibly in the EFLas a whole. Worth thousands of pounds.
@micra said:
I’d be interested to hear Lisa Bowker’s views on this aspect. Life could be very different for her. Her dedication and commitment are unparalleled at this club and possibly in the EFLas a whole. Worth thousands of pounds.
Here, here. Lisa is indeed a legend and an unparalleled supporter.
Jokes aside , the "we are little Wycombe with no money" is an angle and approach that has saved us money and earned goodwill, donations and volunteers, I think we know what has and can happen with "we'll be ok, need to speculate to accumulate"
Bit off topic, but talking of Stockport I got a lift in a taxi from a lifelong Stockport fan the other day. Gates are holding up pretty well - over 2000 in the Conference North ( I haven’t checked though).
But they have owner issues apparently. He told me that Vincent Kompany had put a group together to buy the club but had two offers turned down.
I did think that after the last attempt to sell that we were not going to seek any more investors and concentrate on being fan owned. That has always been one of the reasons I put money in. If the board stopped trying to find new investors and put their time into raising awareness that as a fan owned club, we need more volunteers and more contributions, not more paid staff. We seem to have had a lot of new paid positions this year.
Assuming Bill and Ted aren’t on the night flight back to America after this evening’s performance does anyone have a steer on how share scheme monies might be affected by any takeover?
@chairgirl said:
I did think that after the last attempt to sell that we were not going to seek any more investors and concentrate on being fan owned. That has always been one of the reasons I put money in. If the board stopped trying to find new investors and put their time into raising awareness that as a fan owned club, we need more volunteers and more contributions, not more paid staff. We seem to have had a lot of new paid positions this year.
Great sentiments @chairgirl, I like your enthusiasm and I'd love to agree, but I feel it's totally and absolutely unworkable, as a significant business in the Football League. I volunteer where I can (as I hope you do too) but the club is clearly on it's knees with only 8 full time staff, though they really do a fantastic job. Awareness comes from success and that costs money. To be successful in the way you describe, we would need to almost instantly build a significantly larger fan base and have attendances of over 5000 every game, who also belong and put in a significant amount to the Trust.
It can't happen in the time-frame we have as we're losing +600K PA and seem to have no way forward. This is my opinion and there will be several replies from keyboard warriors to the contrary. Just look at the facts that we have, if you don't already, volunteer a bit and see what's behind the scenes, then I suspect you will see where I'm coming from. I love this club and although I love our Trust ownership and the belonging it brings I fear for it with the present model. I also have concerns for the future under outside owners control but at least we have a chance that route and I don't see that as a possibility as we stand.
Oxford have had their up's and downs but reached there position as a well supported club (way bigger than us BTW) by being bankrolled by Murdoch and achieving success many years ago (folk who were kids then still support them). They soundly beat us tonight as they have a huge budget for the playing staff and were able to have strength in depth. GA will cut cloth according etc. but he consistently achieves results that defy logic as he's a special manager. Very soon, big clubs will make offers that GA will find more than difficult to refuse. Where will we be be then with no time to bed in a new management team? Our present success (?) is built upon our (a) luck in having GA and (b) keeping our management team for several years.
Time, support and finance is our enemy, not potential new owners and lack of volunteers. Let's see what the American's have to say tomorrow (oops, today!) and then stand together for our wonderful club and decide which way we move forward. I know whatever happens, I'll be there.
If I understand correctly, we lost the training ground because we were £7,500 in arrears on our rent and the owners either didn’t remind us or our management were happy to lose the option to buy I back by not paying at least 2,500 of the rent ( one months rent). If new owners resurface AP with artificial turf, then we can train at AP and the current owners of the training ground ( who is this? ) can apply for change of use for housing. The substantial profits could then be split with the football club ( ie the new owners) and the training ground owners?
Just speculation of course, but I,m struggling to see why these potential owners would want to “invest”?
@ValleyWanderer you say the club is on its knees with only 8 full time staff but anyone spending a few hours week to week at the club knows that simply isn’t true . It’s a dialogue perpetuated by those tasked with Managua game our club to try and justify a lack of leadership and training in my opinion . We have ample numbers of staff and pay ample gross salary yearly for off field resources . We are not failing in various business areas because of a lack of money or resources . Look at the ( hypothetical ) list below and in my opinion you will see our money is not being spent well and the really hard workers who provide great output and quality are paid litttle with some high wages at the other end not proving value for money given the clubs performance is listed as poor by Nour own board .
If you don’t agree with my wage values below that’s fine , they are ballpark . But there are obviously many more than this “ only 8 “ full time staff line that people want to try an have us believe.. double that least 16
General manager £50k
Club secretary £40k
Groundsman £80k ( paid thru contractor)
Stadium manager / safety officer £30k
Marketing and media x 2 £50k
Financial controller £25k
Commercial co-ordinator £20k
Events and catering manager £25k
Bar manager £25k
Reception : events co-ordinator £20k
Chefs x 2 £50k
Kiosk supervisor £18k ( now paid thru contractor )
Shop manager £18k
If it’s answers you are looking for on a future that doesn’t involve giving up and and selling , start with this £500k yearly spend and rationalise it.
We all agree here the club doesn’t run optimally . Some say it’s amatuer because we short staffed and cAnt afford to do better . That’s simply not the case on the above list
Many clubs in league one are much leaner than this
@eric_plant presumably any investors would need an exit strategy beyond this given that promotion is an unlikely (but not impossible) prospect; and would remain so even if the wage bill was increased further beyond our means.
I find myself quite unsure of where to turn. I don’t believe that we can continue to exist long-term as a trust owned club as the finances don’t stack up. And this isn’t simply because of mismanagement of catering etc. The fundamentals of lower league football finances are not sustainable.
But for exactly the same reason I question the motives of any potential investors in the club. Given that lower league finances aren’t sustainable, why on earth would anyone think they can make money out of it?
Maybe it is as simple as gambling on promotion, but if so that is one hell of a gamble.
@marlowchair Why don’t you make up lists of staff and their salaries for the many leaner clubs too, so that we can easily identify where the savings can be made?
It will be interesting to hear the reasons Mr Luby gives for wanting to be involved tonight. No doubt the question will come up.
To be honest there must be much easier ways to make profit than pour money into a loss making, heavily indebted, low fan base, already over- achieving lower level football club in the (probably vain) hope that the club can over-achieve still further and move to the Championship and the probably vain hope then that some fool can be found to pay large sums of money for a club that surely would only last a year or two before coming back down.
My money would be on a narrative of "we really enjoyed it at Derby and are lucky that we have some cash we can afford to spend. so we thought it would be fun to get involved in English football at lower level where the numbers aren't so big"
Whether that would be a good thing or not (if that is the given rationale) will no doubt attract plenty of discussion.....
Could it be that the Americans already have a purchaser lined up, perhaps someone that the Trust and/or the legacy members would never agree a direct sale to.
I still remain of the view that 75% is unattainable under the current voting system.
Comments
Get promoted twice, and then qualify for the Champions League.
Football thinking in a nutshell! That is in essence what it's all about and why we regularly overrule our heads with our hearts.
After receiving an email from Nigel Kingston about not continuing club 500 as "the playing budget for this year has been set at a level which we beleive will be sufficient to cope with the demands of league 1" so club 500 is not necessary, how come that we are in such a bad financial position? Surely that indicates that we have money. Also, if it is decided to sell a majority of the club, will we still be expected to pay into the share scheme? Can't see anyone wanting to help make potencial owners more money.
That's a good question. I wonder if the decision was made knowing that it would make for a lot of difficult conversations if we sold the club.
Will certainly be more difficult to persuade people to donate in a number of ways if someone else is taking out a profit. Not sure this has been covered in the lengthy discussions here.
People donating in any fashion in such circumstances would surely be an absolute non-starter?
I'm not certain thats absolute but so much of our income is at least partially goodwill. Not money we can easily lose.
Especially if you include the volunteers who paint the gates and clean the seats etc.
I’d be interested to hear Lisa Bowker’s views on this aspect. Life could be very different for her. Her dedication and commitment are unparalleled at this club and possibly in the EFLas a whole. Worth thousands of pounds.
Here, here. Lisa is indeed a legend and an unparalleled supporter.
Did she go to Stockport though?
I used to pass through Stockport on the bus home from Uni...does that count?
Jokes aside , the "we are little Wycombe with no money" is an angle and approach that has saved us money and earned goodwill, donations and volunteers, I think we know what has and can happen with "we'll be ok, need to speculate to accumulate"
Yup. I assume it will be new owners come in...money put in, new management team, professional set-up...looks good...flog it!
@YorkExile , was that game in the last 5 1/2 years?
Then yes
Bit off topic, but talking of Stockport I got a lift in a taxi from a lifelong Stockport fan the other day. Gates are holding up pretty well - over 2000 in the Conference North ( I haven’t checked though).
But they have owner issues apparently. He told me that Vincent Kompany had put a group together to buy the club but had two offers turned down.
I did think that after the last attempt to sell that we were not going to seek any more investors and concentrate on being fan owned. That has always been one of the reasons I put money in. If the board stopped trying to find new investors and put their time into raising awareness that as a fan owned club, we need more volunteers and more contributions, not more paid staff. We seem to have had a lot of new paid positions this year.
Assuming Bill and Ted aren’t on the night flight back to America after this evening’s performance does anyone have a steer on how share scheme monies might be affected by any takeover?
Great sentiments @chairgirl, I like your enthusiasm and I'd love to agree, but I feel it's totally and absolutely unworkable, as a significant business in the Football League. I volunteer where I can (as I hope you do too) but the club is clearly on it's knees with only 8 full time staff, though they really do a fantastic job. Awareness comes from success and that costs money. To be successful in the way you describe, we would need to almost instantly build a significantly larger fan base and have attendances of over 5000 every game, who also belong and put in a significant amount to the Trust.
It can't happen in the time-frame we have as we're losing +600K PA and seem to have no way forward. This is my opinion and there will be several replies from keyboard warriors to the contrary. Just look at the facts that we have, if you don't already, volunteer a bit and see what's behind the scenes, then I suspect you will see where I'm coming from. I love this club and although I love our Trust ownership and the belonging it brings I fear for it with the present model. I also have concerns for the future under outside owners control but at least we have a chance that route and I don't see that as a possibility as we stand.
Oxford have had their up's and downs but reached there position as a well supported club (way bigger than us BTW) by being bankrolled by Murdoch and achieving success many years ago (folk who were kids then still support them). They soundly beat us tonight as they have a huge budget for the playing staff and were able to have strength in depth. GA will cut cloth according etc. but he consistently achieves results that defy logic as he's a special manager. Very soon, big clubs will make offers that GA will find more than difficult to refuse. Where will we be be then with no time to bed in a new management team? Our present success (?) is built upon our (a) luck in having GA and (b) keeping our management team for several years.
Time, support and finance is our enemy, not potential new owners and lack of volunteers. Let's see what the American's have to say tomorrow (oops, today!) and then stand together for our wonderful club and decide which way we move forward. I know whatever happens, I'll be there.
If I understand correctly, we lost the training ground because we were £7,500 in arrears on our rent and the owners either didn’t remind us or our management were happy to lose the option to buy I back by not paying at least 2,500 of the rent ( one months rent). If new owners resurface AP with artificial turf, then we can train at AP and the current owners of the training ground ( who is this? ) can apply for change of use for housing. The substantial profits could then be split with the football club ( ie the new owners) and the training ground owners?
Just speculation of course, but I,m struggling to see why these potential owners would want to “invest”?
The way to make money out of it is to get promoted then either sell up or take out the increased revenue that that will bring
@ValleyWanderer you say the club is on its knees with only 8 full time staff but anyone spending a few hours week to week at the club knows that simply isn’t true . It’s a dialogue perpetuated by those tasked with Managua game our club to try and justify a lack of leadership and training in my opinion . We have ample numbers of staff and pay ample gross salary yearly for off field resources . We are not failing in various business areas because of a lack of money or resources . Look at the ( hypothetical ) list below and in my opinion you will see our money is not being spent well and the really hard workers who provide great output and quality are paid litttle with some high wages at the other end not proving value for money given the clubs performance is listed as poor by Nour own board .
If you don’t agree with my wage values below that’s fine , they are ballpark . But there are obviously many more than this “ only 8 “ full time staff line that people want to try an have us believe.. double that least 16
General manager £50k
Club secretary £40k
Groundsman £80k ( paid thru contractor)
Stadium manager / safety officer £30k
Marketing and media x 2 £50k
Financial controller £25k
Commercial co-ordinator £20k
Events and catering manager £25k
Bar manager £25k
Reception : events co-ordinator £20k
Chefs x 2 £50k
Kiosk supervisor £18k ( now paid thru contractor )
Shop manager £18k
If it’s answers you are looking for on a future that doesn’t involve giving up and and selling , start with this £500k yearly spend and rationalise it.
We all agree here the club doesn’t run optimally . Some say it’s amatuer because we short staffed and cAnt afford to do better . That’s simply not the case on the above list
Many clubs in league one are much leaner than this
@eric_plant presumably any investors would need an exit strategy beyond this given that promotion is an unlikely (but not impossible) prospect; and would remain so even if the wage bill was increased further beyond our means.
I find myself quite unsure of where to turn. I don’t believe that we can continue to exist long-term as a trust owned club as the finances don’t stack up. And this isn’t simply because of mismanagement of catering etc. The fundamentals of lower league football finances are not sustainable.
But for exactly the same reason I question the motives of any potential investors in the club. Given that lower league finances aren’t sustainable, why on earth would anyone think they can make money out of it?
Maybe it is as simple as gambling on promotion, but if so that is one hell of a gamble.
@marlowchair Why don’t you make up lists of staff and their salaries for the many leaner clubs too, so that we can easily identify where the savings can be made?
It will be interesting to hear the reasons Mr Luby gives for wanting to be involved tonight. No doubt the question will come up.
To be honest there must be much easier ways to make profit than pour money into a loss making, heavily indebted, low fan base, already over- achieving lower level football club in the (probably vain) hope that the club can over-achieve still further and move to the Championship and the probably vain hope then that some fool can be found to pay large sums of money for a club that surely would only last a year or two before coming back down.
My money would be on a narrative of "we really enjoyed it at Derby and are lucky that we have some cash we can afford to spend. so we thought it would be fun to get involved in English football at lower level where the numbers aren't so big"
Whether that would be a good thing or not (if that is the given rationale) will no doubt attract plenty of discussion.....
Could it be that the Americans already have a purchaser lined up, perhaps someone that the Trust and/or the legacy members would never agree a direct sale to.
I still remain of the view that 75% is unattainable under the current voting system.
It’s possible, but little scope for a profit in that approach.
I agree on the 75%, it’ll never happen.
Out of interest, what do you think would happen if say there was a turnout of 80% and 90% approve the deal. What happens then?
Then 72% of those eligible to vote would have approved the deal, which is less than 75%